2012 Garden planning

[bacpacker]

I thought I'd try to get a read on everyone's thoughts on where they plan to get their garden seed for this year.? Do you plan on trying some new companies this year or just stick with tried and true places you have already done buisness with?

For me I will be ordering the bulk of my seed from Baker Creek.
Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds - 1400 heirloom garden seeds! (http://www.rareseeds.com)
I used them the last couple years and have been very happy with the quality and results from their seed. They have some good standards and a lot of various varities that you don't run across everyday. I have been impressed with them.

I will probably also order a few items from Seed Savers Exchange
Seed Savers Exchange (http://www.seedsaverexchange.org)
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, Saving the Past for the Future (http://www.southernexposure.com)
Totally Tomatos
totallytomatos.com: The Leading Fruit Site on the Net (http://www.totallytomatos.com)
and maybe Vermont Bean Company
Garden Seed | Vegetable Garden Seed | Garden Seed Catalog | Garden Seed Company | Vermont Bean (http://www.vermontbean.com)

Totally Tomatos has a great selection of tomatos of all shapes, sizes, and required growing habits. Both SSE and SESE have a decent selection of Heirloom seeds from across the country and the world.

There are also a few things I pick up locally at a local hardware store and maybe some things at the Co-op. What's your plan?

[Grumpy Old Man]

I order from Territorial seeds in Oregon mainly because they're close and have the varieties I like. Baker Creek is also good. I may order from Vermont Bean and maybe TotallyTomatos, which is part of Vermont Bean I believe. They have the same mailing address.

[bacpacker]

I wasn't aware TT and VB may be tied together. I've gotten stuff from TT before, but haven't from VB although they look like they have some decent stuff.

[Evolver]

One place we won't be buying from again is Heirloomseeds.com. We bought from them in the past and their quality control is very poor. Our corn came up with at least two if not three different verities from the same package, unopened seed packs had weevils and seeds were damaged and low germination rates.

We'll stick with the tried and true. Baker Creek and Peaceful Valley. We are also working on seed saving and have a few verities to replant this fall after we get our dreaded nematodes killed off by solarizing the soil in June-Aug.

[Sniper-T]

I buy all mine from a local company:
Heritage Harvest Seed (http://heritageharvestseed.com/)

EXCELLENT quality! and decent prices. Large orders get a % discount, and shipping thrown in too.

[bacpacker]

Sniper I assume their stuff is tailored to you local climate? I'm wanting to do a fall/winter garden this year and have been thinking about going with seed from a colder climate. I would think it would benifit me to go that route.

[Sniper-T]

yep... a lot of their stuff is 'cold resistant' or 'tolerant'

[austinrob]

yikes... I need to start some seeds. In central TX here I can transplant in 6-8 weeks. I'm behind already.

[bacpacker]

Yeah probably so. I'm getting close to starting some stuff myself.

Welcome to the Forum BTW. There is some good info on here, and some really great folks. Jump in with both feet.

[ladyhk13]

Ok, kind of weird here but any of you ever grown Osage Orange for a living fence?

[bacpacker]

I've never had it as a fence, but have heard and read that it makes an excellent choice for a natural fence.
I have turned a small and medium chisel mallets with OO. The wood is super hard and is great as fence post, grape arbors, and tools.
Does the place your closing on have some on it, or are you planting?

[ladyhk13]

There aren't any there but I was thinking of planting them as fences. We don't have any trees that I can harvest seed from so I'm not sure it would be feasable as far as cost goes

[msomnipotent]

Ok, kind of weird here but any of you ever grown Osage Orange for a living fence?



I want to but I don't think the HOA would allow it. The fencing rules are nuts here. I read that they are easy to grow and the trees have mostly heart wood. They are on my wish list if we ever get to move to a place that has space for them.

[msomnipotent]

I usually buy from Baker Creek for food seeds and Farm and Fleet or Home Depot for flowers & herbs. My daughter and I spent over an hour looking over the seed catalogs and checking what we already have. She has decided to grow beets because we have never tasted them. I have decided to try garlic and onions this year, along with the usual beans, tomatoes, and corn. If I can convince my husband to move and expand the garden, we will grow broccoli, asparagus, and pumpkin. I also want to replace the decorative trees in front with apple trees and trade our burning bushes for roses, but I can't get too ahead of myself. We plan on moving and the type of people that would be attracted to our subdivision would want a few pretty things to look at and not have to take care of.

[Sniper-T]

Ok, kind of weird here but any of you ever grown Osage Orange for a living fence?

I've been looking into this for a couple years already, and it seems like there is no better plant for this purpose. Unfortunately, I cannot get a straight answer whether or not they'll grow/survive in my zone. If I can find some seeds, I might just have to try it to see. Keep me in mind if you sourse some.

I still have 4 months before I can think of getting anything in the ground outside, but in a month or so, I'll fire up the indoor greenhouse and get some stuff started.

[ravensgrove]

Along the same lines as the hedge...the new property is less than 2 miles from a broad stretch of Lake Ontario and the back actually has a foot path right up to the lake...we need to plant a windbreak...but I am also clueless as to what will not only grow thick/tall but fast there.

Any ideas?

[ravensgrove]

Sorry posted twice for some reason and I don't know how to delete...see below

[ravensgrove]

Sheffields :: Osage Orange, Hedge Apple, Bodark, Bois D'Arc, Horse Apple, Hedge Maclura pomifera (http://www.sheffields.com/seed_genus_species_lot/Maclura/pomifera/100554)

^^^^^Here is a link for Osage Orange seed. With the goats I am steering clear of Osage Orange myself its a known toxant...I am leaning toward Hedge Maple...I have to stay out of the Ericaceae family all together...so pretty much most standard ornamental hedging as it is a horrid toxant to goats.
I am not sure exactly where you are...but here is how I am planning out our own place which is basically a pasture area at this point. I started with native flora of NY, and immediately eliminated any ericaceae....using this website...most states should have an arbor association with a similar site. Here is NYs:

Search Results - NYFA: New York Flora Atlas (http://www.newyork.plantatlas.usf.edu/Results.aspx)

[Sniper-T]

Other 'usefull' things to consider, are chokecherries, Pincherries, Saskatoons. They will all grow great where you are for a windbreak. But aren't the greatest as a deterent. if you plant them back a bit, and something nasty in front of them????

[Sniper-T]

And.... Thanks for the link. I'll order a couple pkgs to see what happens.

I am in one of the coldest zones of lower canada, with one of the shortest growing seasons. BUT... when we are in our growing season... MOST things grow prodigiously.

The big IF is whether they can handle our winter, and come back again! :(

[ravensgrove]

I am not so much worried about a deterent we will be installing perimeter fencing anyhow. There is no bush/hedge on the planet goats wouldn't just eat right through LOL. I am just after a good windbreak. From poking through the seed site I would suggest planting any trees/hedge seed this fall under a heavy mulch...most of them need 120 days of cold stratification, thats what I'll be doing. I'm also picking through grasses to build a mock prairie for pasture.

[Sniper-T]

IMO there are only two ways to stop goats from going where you don't want them to...
1. landmines! enough said!
2. create a nicer, better, place for them... they will not tear through a barrier fence 1/2 mile away, IF they have a steady and sufficient food supply closer.

They only get destructive when they are 'missing' something in their lives.

IMO

[Evolver]

IMO there are only two ways to stop goats from going where you don't want them to...
1. landmines! enough said!
2. create a nicer, better, place for them... they will not tear through a barrier fence 1/2 mile away, IF they have a steady and sufficient food supply closer.

They only get destructive when they are 'missing' something in their lives.

IMO

Kinda like a goat play ground with shipping pallet structures for them to climb on and fight over. :)

[ravensgrove]

having been a goatherd for many many many moons...with my little devils..they don't go through or over...they go under...so its all about tight fence posts.

[ladyhk13]

^Have you thought about running a very low voltage line along to bottom of your fence using a solar panel to deter them from the perimeter?

[ravensgrove]

They eat it, and yes we have and no it doesn't work LOL. We have spent a fortune in solar netting as well, and they eat it...goats really could give a crap less about electrical fence unless its enough to drop them cold. I have no problem with them getting out we just put fence posts tight so they cant work up the bottom of the fencing (our standard fence line has a t post at every 3 ft) we learned years ago how to do fencing. Now they only get out if we, the dumb humans, forget to shut a gate or leave something close enough to the fence they can climb over.

[Sniper-T]

oddly enough raven, a lot of the local goat farmers will shoot any wayward goats, and leave the carcasses to rot outside the fence. it seems that seeing one of fallen bretheren often stops other from breaking out.

[ladyhk13]

oddly enough raven, a lot of the local goat farmers will shoot any wayward goats, and leave the carcasses to rot outside the fence. it seems that seeing one of fallen bretheren often stops other from breaking out.

HOW HORRIBLE!!!!!!! I would rather give up all of my (if I had any) goats than do something like that. It's not in me, that's just plain cruel....in my book if you kill it you have to eat it.

[Sniper-T]

yeah... I see it as a waste too. I've asked a couple times to take the meat... but was refused. :(

I hate seeing waste like that!

:(

ETA but no...

some animals, coyotes, foxes, cats, etc need to be culled, and I wouldn't eat them. but leaving a goat seems irresponsible

[work in progress]

Osage orange is a great choice for sustainability. Cured firewood is one of the highest in BTU's - watch out for the green stuff - it throws a lot of sparks. The Hedge Apples have insecticidal properties. We always kept them in the corners of the pantry and basement. Especially in the feed room in our barn.

They are easy to propogate. throw some hedge apples in a barrel and let the rain cover them with water. They can sit over the winter and be mashed in the water when they thaw inthe spring to make a slurry. dig a trench a couple inches deep wherever you want them to grow, pour the slurry in and cover them back over. Mother nature can do the rest. Thin out the seedlings.
When they get growing the branches grow like honeysuckle in a way - you need to maintain them. good kindling after they sit for a few weeks to dry out. They do make a great windbreak and we used them as living fencerows. Hope this helps you out.

Is anybody including medicinal herbs and plants in their garden plans? I really need to start collecting these useful plants. Any suggestions??? Midwest US - zone 6

[The Stig]

Welcome aboard WIP. Thanks for sharing this info.

[ladyhk13]

Osage orange is a great choice for sustainability. Cured firewood is one of the highest in BTU's - watch out for the green stuff - it throws a lot of sparks. The Hedge Apples have insecticidal properties. We always kept them in the corners of the pantry and basement. Especially in the feed room in our barn.

They are easy to propogate. throw some hedge apples in a barrel and let the rain cover them with water. They can sit over the winter and be mashed in the water when they thaw inthe spring to make a slurry. dig a trench a couple inches deep wherever you want them to grow, pour the slurry in and cover them back over. Mother nature can do the rest. Thin out the seedlings.
When they get growing the branches grow like honeysuckle in a way - you need to maintain them. good kindling after they sit for a few weeks to dry out. They do make a great windbreak and we used them as living fencerows. Hope this helps you out.

Is anybody including medicinal herbs and plants in their garden plans? I really need to start collecting these useful plants. Any suggestions??? Midwest US - zone 6

I have a TON of medicinal herbs and plants in my plans. I have more than I can possibly write right now but I'll get a list for you if you want.
On the osage, I don't have access to any here. I'm going to have to see if I can find trees when they are in seed or buy them. I have been thinking about having a fence of them for years and years. They are pretty fast growers, aren't they? I figure about 3 years they should be pretty decent size - this is even after the "braiding" needed the create the fence. Can you tell me anything else about them?

[ladyhk13]

Ok WIP here is a partial list of what I have. I haven't updated since last year but it gives you some idea. I have lumped my regular herbs and medicinal ones together but some have dual purposes. Let me know if you need anything else.

Angelica
Balsam
Basil-cinnamon
Basil-genovese
Basil-holy
Basil-spicy bush globe
Basil-sweet
Basil-sweet-hybrid
Bedstraw-yellow
Bee balm -lemon mint
Bee balm-oswego tea
Bergamot-wild
Black cumin-coriander
Bloodflower
Burdock
Calendula
Caraway
Catnip
Chamomile
Chicory
Cilantro
Clary
Comfrey
Coriander/Cilantro
Cumin
Dill
Dill-anethum graveolens
Dill-grandma eink's
Dill-mammoth-hybrid
Echinacea-purple coneflower
Edelveiss
Elecampane
Epazote
Eucalyptus
Fennel
Fenugreek
Feverfew
Flax
Gumplant
Hawkweed
Heartlease
Horehound
Hyssop
Jacob's ladder
Joe pye weed
Lamb's ear
Lavender-english
Lavender-sea
Lemon balm
Marjoram-sweet
Marshmallow
Mint
Mullein
Mustard-brown
Mustard-old fashioned
Mustard-yellow
Nigella
Oregano-greek
Parsley - italian
Parsley root
Pennyroyal
Peppermiint
Plantain
Primrose-evening
Pyrethrum
Queen ann's lace
Red clover
Rosemary
Rosemary-hybrid
Rupturewort
Safflower
Sage
Savory-summer
Savory-winter
Soapwort
Spearmint
St. John's wort
Stevia
Tansy
Valerian

[bacpacker]

Wow Lady, that is some list. Very impressive. We grow some of those but not many.

[bacpacker]

As you've been going thru the catalogs, have you found any new variety's you want to try this year? How about some old favorites you are growing again this year.

Here's a couple of new ones I want to try. Some tomato's
| | Totally Tomatoes (http://www.totallytomato.com/dp.asp?pID=00415)

califlour
Giant of Naples Cauliflower - Cauliflower - Vegetables A-C (http://rareseeds.com/vegetablesa-c/cauliflower/giant-of-naples-cauliflower.html)

Squash
Hubbard True Green Improved Squash - Winter Squash - Squash - Vegetables P-Z (http://rareseeds.com/vegetables-p-z/squash/winter-squash/hubbard-true-green-improved-squash.html)

and watermelon
Moon and Stars Yellow Flesh - Watermelon - Vegetables P-Z (http://rareseeds.com/vegetables-p-z/watermelon/moon-and-stars-yellow-flesh.html)

I try and plant a few new types every year.

[ladyhk13]

I'm going to be looking for new fruit and nut trees to plant over on the property. I know I want blueberry, apple, pear, paw paw, pecan, hazelnut, we already have hickory....that's my list so far. Since space isn't a problem I can chose anything I want so it's a matter of trying to be creative and learning about things I may not have heard of before or forgotten about.

[ladyhk13]

Wow Lady, that is some list. Very impressive. We grow some of those but not many.

I haven't grown all of them yet but do know that Stevia is almost impossible to grow from seed. I keep getting told to just go buy plants but I can't find them anywhere.

[bacpacker]

Check out these folks for fruit and nut trees.
Stark Bro's - Quality Fruit Trees, Berries & More Since 1816. (http://www.starkbros.com/?gclid=COXuuKzf060CFQtZ7AodgmtZlw)

Their not cheap, but they have the best looking trees I gotten anywhere. The roots are awesome on them and they have a full years warranty. I've bought from them for the last 3 years and really like the products.

[bacpacker]

Here is another question for you. Hopefully one that will get some good dialog going. The parameters for this is something along these lines: We have had a major nation or world wide event, call it a massive CME that takes down the grid world wide. It could be a worldwide economic collapse just as well. But something large enough that normal business will be down for multiple years.

I've been giving a lot of thought to this lately and need some opinions. How would you go about planning for food production (veggies in particular) for a larger group, say a large family or MAG, call it 20-30 people. I've never grown or worked for that matter on one that was for more than 4-5 folks. We almost always had a surplus to share with neighbors and family. But that is small pickings compared to a group 4-6 times that size.

How would you go about figuring how much seed, soil amendments, fertilizer, tools, etc to get started and keep production up? What about planning acreage to grow this amount of food, being able to rotate crops yearly, and leave ground fallow every 3-7 years to replenish the soil? One example I came up with was this. We usually grow between 25-40 tomato plants each year for 2-3 of us to eat on fresh and put up as whole or cut tomatos, sauce, spaghetti sauce, salsa, and such. Just doing a straight multiplication by ten to cover 30 folks (which may or may not be enough) would take us up to 250-400 plants. That is just one crop.

Another issue would be how you would manage fertilize long term. You could stock tons of commercial fertilize, but at some point it will run out assuming a huge SHTF event. Currently I use some type of green manure on one or more sections of my garden every winter and sometimes buckwheat thru the summer on areas I don't have something growing on yet.

When considering this I think I should also plan on growing extra grain, corn wheat, etc to use for animal feed. This will take additional acerage and supplies.

I wonder if any of you have planned out the extent you would have to go for a group of that size? And how much manpower it would take to make all this happen. I assume there would be fuel available for a period of time, but that will run out at some point as well and all food production will revert to hand work. What do you all think?

[work in progress]

I think people better be willing to help if you are going to feed them. A woman at my farmer's market grows her own wheat and grains and bakes artisan breads. she told me a hardy 10'x10' plot of winter wheat will make about 25-30 loaves of bread. She also told me some of her certified organic stuff she harvests by hand, and it doesn't take a lot to separate the wheat berries from the shaft, and the by-product is what she uses for bedding in her chicken coop. The corn she has is for corn meals and flours. she lets the stalks go to a neighbor's farm to be given to the cattle. I know she makes a living off of this, but does nothing else. She signs on high school students to help her during harvest times and inherited her farm from her family. So there's no mortgage and the teens get cash at the end of the day. She doesn't produce enough to sell at stores - only at year-round farmer's markets. She can't even grow vegetables or maintain the orchard on her property. she co-ops with the family farm next door in exchange for bread and grains. just something to think about.

[bacpacker]

I'm in total agreement with you on labor needed. I would think to feed 20-30 folks, you would need at least 4-5 of them full time most of the year. Harvest time could easily double that for streches.
My primary concern with the last post however was more trying to figure supply quantites just to get started. Maybe long term to some degree.
Feeding a group whether 5 or 50 will be no easy task. But IMO is something that must be planned for.

[bacpacker]

I'm in total agreement with you on labor needed. I would think to feed 20-30 folks, you would need at least 4-5 of them full time most of the year. Harvest time could easily double that for streches.
My primary concern with the last post however was more trying to figure supply quantites just to get started. Maybe long term to some degree.
Feeding a group whether 5 or 50 will be no easy task. But IMO is something that must be planned for.

[bacpacker]

Well no opinions on planning seed needs for a group. I guess I'll just do some estimates and try to calculate the harvest from our garden this year more closely to come up with some estimates.

How many of you keep records of your garden? What type information do you track?

I have a journal I've used off and on since the late 90's (missed a couple years) to keep track of various topics. Things such as planting dates, variety planted, where at in the garden they were planted and which bed, when they were weeded, fertilized, when harvest started, when it ended. I also plant and work the garden according to the signs of the moon and stars. I use the Blum's farmer's Almanac to gather this information. Before you totally discount the use of the signs, let me just say this. I have used this technique steadily for the last 5 years and have had good luck with it. I did not use it for several years before that and the results have me sold. Growing up my parents and grandparents always used the signs for planting as well as other things and usually did well.

Some things I want to add to the data this year is, how much harvest of each variety of crop, also what kind of green manure crops I use where and when. Also what and where compost is used, any pest control. For that matter when pest start showing up. I think this could all be a critical bit of info. If you have a store of data to refer to, I think it could give you a leg up in bad times.

[Sniper-T]

^
wow! That's hardcore BP. Since I'm still setting everything up, thus far I've been happy that things are actually growing.

I'm not sure that would do much for me, at least not in the short term, although long term data might be beneficial.

2 years ago, we had an extremely early thaw, with some great temps. I had my whole garden in the ground before the middle of April. Everything started well, and by mid may it was looking like a banner year. Then it started to rain, and didn't stop for 5 weeks. At the end of it, I had 6" of water covering my whole garden for over a month. (overland flooding conditions across the province).

Last year, we had a late thaw, and I didn't get anything into soil (all new 16" high garden boxes) until the first of June. Things were coming along nicely, and then we had the hottest driest summer in history. I watered everything like crazy, but by mid august we were in a dust bowl. I had 2" wide cracks in my yard, and very little from the garden survived, despite the gardening.

[Onestep]

I've had very good luck with Victory Seeds. I do buy locally at HD, Lowes and local feed stores as the variety they sell here typically does best in our area.
I've expanded our gardens and will be posting pics when I take them.
I've planted a lot of different type of veggies in the past 2 years but have narrowed it down to the ones that we like and that grow the best here.

[Patmark]

Hi Onestep my friend, I hope all is well with you and yours up there in the land of nod. I'm really glad to see you here. I thought I would post this link for anyone planning a garden this year. It shows the new zone info across the US, the times they are a changin so we have to keep up with the difference in temperatures for whichever zones that we happen to be in as this is changing the months to plant certain things in. I hope this will help you in planning everyone. Take care, and I will talk to you all soon.

USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map (http://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/)

PM :cool:

[bacpacker]

Nice link PM. I saw a blurb on the local news last week, but hadn't had a chance to grab the link yet. My local area didn't change, but areas close by did.

[izzyscout21]

I actually started planning out where I'm going to put everything this year. I've marked out where the "traditional" garden will be gogin and am in the process of laying out where I want my raised beds.

[bacpacker]

Alright Izzy! It's always fun plannin stuff out.

[Taz Baby]

I found this on the Web.

Its garlic time again! Sorry if I sound a little excited but for a gardener who is already getting weary of fall and the prospect of a coming winter garlic provides a welcome reprieve. There's something about peeling the skin away thats akin to unwrapping a present. The separation of the cloves becomes a zen-like experience.
Its actually tough to find decisive advice on when to plant garlic. Common wisdom states that either spring or fall planting is correct. However what most don't state is that the garlic needs a period of chill to essentially break dormancy. If you plant in in last fall/early winter you don't have to worry about that. And as long as you plant the garlic deep enough and mulch well you won't have to worry about the winter harming the cloves. Plus when I plant the varieties I grow around the first of November here in Kentucky I get a harvest in time for my tomato harvest. The choice is pretty obvious to me.
But I have planted garlic around April. That garlic was already sprouting in the humid air. I got a crop but the bulbs were obviously smaller.
The recommended planting depth is 1-2". I don't get out the ruler though when I plant. I find that any depth in that range is fine. I then cover with at least an inch of mulch. The pointy side (away from the root ball) goes up by the way. When I let my three year old plant the cloves with me I had to constantly remind him. Eventually I just went behind him and corrected the ones that had fell (when he wasn't looking of course).
The soil doesn't have to be rich in organic matter though it certainly helps and will result in larger bulbs. I could tell the difference between bulbs planted where I'd worked on the soil more. The soil has to be quite well drained. Waterlogged soil or standing water will rot the cloves in the ground.
After that, garlic is basically carefree. Mulch it well and water it in times of drought. My garlic didn't seem to mind my neglect or that I didn't immediately pull every weed nearby. The sprouts emerge in spring before just about anything else. Once a majority of the green parts turn brown I harvest (usually mid summer). You have to get down below the root and pop it out. After that you should let them dry in a cool (as you can get), dry and dark place for a week or two. After that, garlic stores extremely well - especially the softneck varieties.
Garlic originated in Central Asia but has been adopted by virtually all cultures which speaks to its finer qualities. Garlic is also revered as a medicinal plant due to its antimicrobial, antifungal, antiviral, antibacterial and antivampiric properties. Its impossible to list all of the ailments that garlic is purported to treat. Garlic is related to the onion family of plants, residing in the Allium genus.
Regardless of how you intend to use it, garlic's beneficial properties make it a must have plant for the homesteader's garden!
You can follow me at my blog and podcast - The Self-Sufficient Gardener (The Self-Sufficient Gardener - The Podcast FOR Sustainable Vegetable Gardening and Other Food Systems (http://www.theselfsufficientgardener.com)) or on Facebook (The Self Sufficient Gardener | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/selfsufficientgardener))

Read more: The Happy Homesteader Blog - Country Skills, Simple Living, Self Reliance, Sustainable Agriculture, Homesteading (http://www.motherearthnews.com/blogs/blog.aspx?blogid=1510&blogmonth=11&blogyear=2011#ixzz1fQP0cral)

[bacpacker]

We use a lot of garlic and have grown it in the past. We had gotten to the point of growing our seed stock for the following year. Then I screwed up and planted it in an area that didn't drain nearly as well as it should. We lost the whole crop.
I've gotta get new seed stock now and start over. Lesson Learned!