Vehicles: Ambushes, driving them in Dangerous Situations, etc

[mitunnelrat]

Message from Stig: A discussion started in a different thread about ambushes and protecting cars from attack.

While this is a very specific scenario, and our world has gone to shit if this happens, it's still a subject to consider. It's not that far of a stretch to imagine a family trying to evacuate post hurricane and getting stopped by gang members. Or a car getting caught up in the crossfire of an active shooter or terrorist event.

Here are the original posts that got the conversation kicked off.....



Something that immediately hit me as possibly being a better option is a bomb blanket, so I googled it.

Lo and behold there's also a ballistic barrier blanket (http://www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic-Blankets.shtml) on the market. Its pricey, but I think investing in the big one would keep the armor off the kids' bodies, sparing them any blunt force trauma they might experience from worn armor, and protect them as they grow and develop into being able to wear armor of their own.

ETA: I'll still have to remember this baby version for if/ when I ever have a kid of my own :D

[Stormfeather]

Ive made provisions, bomb blankets hung inside the kids area of the vehicle for bug out to BOL. Our oldest boy spent some xmas money when he found a kevlar backpack for school. I was going to buy it for him when he told me about it, but he had already went and bought it.

[Sniper-T]

k, nice gimmick, IMO!!! But I think that even with that vest on, the trauma from a bullet would kill that toddler as sure as the bullet would. Maybe just slower and more painfully.

The bomb blankets are a good idea, especially in a vehicle.

what about those shields that riot cops carry? do they actually stop bullets or are the just for defensive smashing of hippies and tree huggers?

Best way to survive a firefight? DON'T BE IN ONE!! yeah yeah, easier said than done in SHTF... but really, what is that bomb blanket going to do hanging in the backseat, while pieces of shit are riddling your ride with surplus fmj. you're on 4 flats and probably have several major holes in your engine block to boot.

The only useful things I see on that vest are the pouches for some of the kids things, and the carry handle.

[Stormfeather]

k, nice gimmick, IMO!!! But I think that even with that vest on, the trauma from a bullet would kill that toddler as sure as the bullet would. Maybe just slower and more painfully.

The bomb blankets are a good idea, especially in a vehicle.

what about those shields that riot cops carry? do they actually stop bullets or are the just for defensive smashing of hippies and tree huggers?

Best way to survive a firefight? DON'T BE IN ONE!! yeah yeah, easier said than done in SHTF... but really, what is that bomb blanket going to do hanging in the backseat, while pieces of shit are riddling your ride with surplus fmj. you're on 4 flats and probably have several major holes in your engine block to boot.

The only useful things I see on that vest are the pouches for some of the kids things, and the carry handle.

The bomb blanket is a kevlar blanket thats IIIA, so it will stop rounds all day long. The idea is to push thru a killzone and not be stuck in it. If we are in one, then the kids will at least have a level of protection. We used the same tactic overseas before we had the uparmored vehicles and found it works as good as is possible, without having a armored vehicle. And believe it or not, bullets for the most part arent going thru engine blocks unless they hit a weak spot. You will be more susceptible to a radiator hit, which will still allow you to drive for a bit before your vehicle would be disabled. As for flat tires, the chances of getting a disabling hit there are small, if moving fast, while if we was hit, we can still get some distance (out of the killzone ) before we would have to stop. I base a lot of my security preps on my time overseas in Iraq, after mutiple vehicle ambushes, Ive found this is what works for us as far as vehicles.

[Sniper-T]

WOW !!!! great post Stormy! thanks for taking the time!

I've made it no secret, that I am a civy! I have no op experience with this kind of thing, and at best, can play the devils advocate. I can only hope, that my argumentative posts in threads like this not only pose questions that others may think, but also not display my ignorance to a harsh reality.

I have no Qualms about asking or questioning that that I do not know!!!!

I don't know about you Stormy, but up here in :Canadian Redneck Territory: we shoot the shit out of a lot of stuff, just for the fuck of it.

We buy POS vehicles for a couple hundred bucks, just to shoot the shit out of them.... and seriously. most hunting rounds can stop a vehicle a lot easier than Hollywood would have us think

I honestly have no clue what happens in the military, but if I'm nestled down, ready for a shot.... I will be able to stop most anything with a single shot. Pick mid rad, 2/3 up from center. you'll hit most engines right at the head level!
done!

And again.... IMO... this has no military experience.... just me and my friends, blowing the shit out of stuff. Teach, sensei.... teach!

[ak474u]

The bomb blanket is a kevlar blanket thats IIIA, so it will stop rounds all day long. The idea is to push thru a killzone and not be stuck in it. If we are in one, then the kids will at least have a level of protection. We used the same tactic overseas before we had the uparmored vehicles and found it works as good as is possible, without having a armored vehicle. And believe it or not, bullets for the most part arent going thru engine blocks unless they hit a weak spot. You will be more susceptible to a radiator hit, which will still allow you to drive for a bit before your vehicle would be disabled. As for flat tires, the chances of getting a disabling hit there are small, if moving fast, while if we was hit, we can still get some distance (out of the killzone ) before we would have to stop. I base a lot of my security preps on my time overseas in Iraq, after mutiple vehicle ambushes, Ive found this is what works for us as far as vehicles.

THIS,

Momentum helps when a vehicle is disabled to at least coast out of a kill zone. The reason the guys running convoys move fast in Up-Armored SUVs is to be a moving target, and to pass thru an area before the bad guys can organize an attack, and to make a harder target for the guys who ARE waiting to attack. I would think that even though it's not hard armor, the ballistic curtain would help if one had to fight from a disabled vehicle, in the middle of an ambush. As far as avoiding death in a fire fight by not getting in one, is definitely the best plan, but protection against the rounds that find the target, speed, and an armed overwhelming response, is a good way to get out maybe just not in one piece.

[Stormfeather]

WOW !!!! great post Stormy! thanks for taking the time!

I've made it no secret, that I am a civy! I have no op experience with this kind of thing, and at best, can play the devils advocate. I can only hope, that my argumentative posts in threads like this not only pose questions that others may think, but also not display my ignorance to a harsh reality.

I have no Qualms about asking or questioning that that I do not know!!!!

I don't know about you Stormy, but up here in :Canadian Redneck Territory: we shoot the shit out of a lot of stuff, just for the fuck of it.

We buy POS vehicles for a couple hundred bucks, just to shoot the shit out of them.... and seriously. most hunting rounds can stop a vehicle a lot easier than Hollywood would have us think

I honestly have no clue what happens in the military, but if I'm nestled down, ready for a shot.... I will be able to stop most anything with a single shot. Pick mid rad, 2/3 up from center. you'll hit most engines right at the head level!
done!

And again.... IMO... this has no military experience.... just me and my friends, blowing the shit out of stuff. Teach, sensei.... teach!

Sniper-T, the best way I can describe it is this, rolling thru a red spot (hot zone) when we take fire, its all about hitting the gas and speeding thru the engagement area, sometimes it works, and everybody gets away clean with a couple of jokes and a few wet pairs of pants, but understand, sometimes it doesn't work out that way. The trick to it, (in my seriously HUMBLE opinion) is to not lose your cool, hit the gas, steer straight, and go for broke, anything less, and you get a golden ticket. Sometimes (actually, most times) you win, sometimes, well, you don't. What Ive seen/witnessed, is that most times, hadj/jackwad/skinny/dumass doesnt get that lucky shot to slow you down, in the infinitely off the wall chance, that he gets a lucky shot to slow ya down, you still have a fighting chance by hitting the gas, and pushing thru. (Since I dont have any actual/factual knowledge about Izzy's combat record, knowing what i do already, I would venture to say, he would vouch for this) Its all about pushing thru, "reacting", and making the jackwad come to grips with the fact they are about to meet their maker. Sometimes (for the most part) it works out, sometimes it doesnt. What im trying to say here is this. while it happens, lucky shots are lucky shots, shit happens, but for the most part, you can make it out alive with your crew/family/MAG. That being said, sometimes the fates are wanting to play a fucked up game and run the numbers against you. Salute and execute.
Now, as far as $500 beaters, shooting them up, and seeing what they do, cant count that as good info. Ive seen $500 willys jeeps take 25-30 MK-19 rounds and keep running, and Ive seen a $65000 Land/Range Rover take one hit and die like a $20 hooker on a $5.00 speedball. its all about the luck, anyone who tells you different, well, to be honest, that person hasnt had the dragon wink at them enough to make their opinion matter (IMHO)
ive shot enough vehicles, and other crap, to know how much damage it can take before it break downs. Sometimes its all about luck. Evil Knievel said it best with his motto "Color Me Lucky". The same applies to shooting shit for no reason.
Now, take all this with a grain of salt, this is just the opinion of a broke down warhorse who refuses to go to pasture. I havent seen it all/done it all/ been there/done that. . . as much as the next guy, Ive just pissed my pants enough to know when the odds are against me. Somewhere in all this, I think I got as much as experience as the guy who slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night. Im just sayin. . . . :P

Stay Frosty Fuckers!

[izzyscout21]

STormy is right. Pushing through a kill zone in a vehicle is the only way to go. If you stop, you have a really god chance of not getting on the move again. Or just plain dying. 9 times out of 10, even lightly armored vehicles can make it out of an ambush zone still running. It all comes down to wheter or not the SOB shooting at you got lucky.

Also agree with Stormy on point #2. SHooting old junkers isnt really a good indicator of how effectively you could stop a vehicle. SOme engines can take more abuse than others..blah blah blah. I can tell you this:

I have personally shot multipe vehicles while on deployment. I have attempted to disable these things with 5.56mm, 7.62, and .50 BMG. Weapns ranging from the standard M-4 and M-14 to the more specialized M-24, M110 and M107.
SOmetimes it only took a round or two. SOmetimes it took 30.
5.56 and 7.62 took more hits to disable, but it was possible to do with both. The Barrett was able to do a much better job (sometimes one round, sometimes 5 or 6). But keep in mind, it is a .50 caliber weapon designed in an anti-material role.


It's all about shot placement and whether or not you get a vehicle that just does not want to die. Hitting a moving vehicle just right, every time, in the correct way, to effectively stop it....honestly...............It's a lot easier to shoot the driver.

[ak474u]

More importantly than armor, which IMHO is important especially if the vehicle is disabled and you have to stand your ground, is the ability to stop an equally, or more armored threat. I have my own opinions on this video, but I'll stick to the facts for a second... Edinburgh Risk and Security Management Iraq - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-fjrRB7WPQ&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLF7FF633F2C8F344D) 2 people died in this ambush, because of several mistakes, one being that a vehicle was thought to be disabled because the E-Brake was on and it was in neutral, the operator believed it to be dead (according to the AAR from Edinburgh Risk) when he hit the gas, and it don't go, so he bailed to a ditch, and pretty much vapor locked, he has since made a career of training people, but that is not the point. The insurgents were shooting at them from a Suburban that was lightly armored with steel plate "hillbilly armor" these guys had MP5s and M4s, and could not shoot thru the lightweight steel plates to stop the threat, once they were in a fight for their lives, they had no weapons that would "punch thru" The company changed their SOPs on convoys after this to include at least one weapon that could fire 7.62 AP like an M14, or a PKM IIRC. These guys ran soft-skinned vehicles, and got stuck with nowhere to hide (cept Yeager, he found a spot) and ended up with 2 dead, and more injured.

[izzyscout21]

Now that is interesting....I would have assumed the reverse.

See what happens when you assume.

The dynamics of shooting through glass is a discussion best reserved for another time. HOwever...........

when you are not making a precision shot, and just plan on peppering a windshield til you hit him, knocking out the driver is a lot easier method. In this scenario I am not worried about shooting the correct part of the engine, just busting the guy steering the death machine.

[Sniper-T]

WOW! great responses guys. Again, my experience is limited, and controlled! I bet a friend that I could disable any vehicle with a single shot, and he called me on it. We went to a local wrecker over a period of time and bought a whole whack of different things for him to 'sty' me.

we'd get it back to his farm, set it out in the field and while running, I'd take it out.

Now this is where your differences come up. me.... shooting at a stationary vehicle, from a secure location, from a secure rest, onto a vehicle that I inspected first... really made for an easy target. IRL with that vehicle bouncing down the road, swerving, and possibly unfamiliar.... YEP! I have to agree, the concept of one shot disabling is slim to nil.

And yes... I fully agree, that if entering a "kill-zone" your best chance of survival, is to power through it!! FAST!! and recklessly!!!

Great posts guys

Oh... and if you have a clean shot to dissable a vehicle that you are familiar with.... one shot in though the front, less than an inch away from where the cam is, will stop anything that I've shot at. Bust up the front cam bearing. any engine will stop. IMO

[LUNCHBOX]

Vehicle ambushes can be looked at close to most confrontations. You don't have to be prior military (though it might help at times) to understand the term "Violence Of Action" this term can be taken/used in many scenarios. V.O.A. for a vehicle could be just as Storm says--punch through fast and let your speed carry you. Although I like the idea of having armor for a vehicle. Steel plate, kevlar blanket, soft armor or a plate carrier, use whatever you can get.

[Stormfeather]

From having experienced vehicle ambushes in Iraq and Afghanistan and NOLA, I can tell you with great faith, the best way to survive it is to push thru and keep going. The only reason you should stop during a vehicle ambush is because a vehicle has stopped due to being disabled. Any other reason just isnt enough to stop in the middle of a gun fight. Understanding that yes, a vehicle can be disabled, and sometimes it does happen, but for the most part, it takes a hell of a lot to disable a vehicle from a frontal/oblique, or flank side shot. Now, having taken that into consideration, what do you do if you have a disabled vehicle?

If You Vehicle Is Fully Disabled And Cannot Be Moved.

1- Get out of the vehicle and seek cover. The best spots for cover if you are using the vehicle, is its engine compartment and wheels. Obviously, use the non-contact side of the vehicle to hide behind. If its a frontal assault and you end up disabled, open all doors, left, right, front and rear as well if the vehicle has them, and get to the rear or front of the vehicle. This provides a wider area to hide behind versus the smaller profile of the vehicle.
2- Return fire, this needs to happen immediately to suppress whoever it is that initiated the ambush. Gaining fire superiority is key to winning an ambush. Putting the bad guys down hard and fast will pull you thru it. Once you have gained the upper hand, then begin to start your retreat and removing yourself and fellow party members out of the killzone.
3- Get a count of all people in the group, ammo, injuries, food, water, and remaining vehicles if any, and get out of the area. Unless you have a intimate idea of who/how many people attacked you, you wont have any ideas of their numbers, so better to remove yourself from the contact area than sit around and find out how many they have, and what their intentions are. (As if the vehicle ambush didnt already give away their intentions!) Regroup, Redistribute Ammo, and Retreat. While that may sound like the shallow thing to do, you have to take into consideration, you arent a attacking force, you are a person/group of persons trying to survive. By going back for more, only increases your chances of you or a member of your group getting injured or killed. Live to fight another day.

If Your Vehicle Is Disabled But Still Able To Move.

1- All vehicles should be equipped with tow straps pre-tied onto bumpers for this to work. Upon initiation of a vehicle ambush and a vehicle goes down but is still steerable and no tires have been shot out, You have two options available to you. Push or Pull.

Push Method - Simple economy of movement is you use your vehicle to push the disabled vehicle out of the killzone and a few miles down the road. From there, the 3 R's go into effect.

Pull Method - Pull method is a little bit harder, but can be done quickly in 30 seconds or less if practiced. Have more than 2 vehicles, one vehicle pulls to the front or reverses to the front of the disabled vehicle, one vehicle pulls to the contact side alongside the disabled vehicle and provides a blocking force to hide the person who will attach the tow vehicle to the disabled vehicle. Members can exit the vehicle on the non-contact side of the vehicle to provide cover fire, and to attach the tow vehicle to the disabled one. Drive several miles down the road and then 3 R's go into effect.

There are multiple variations on how this can be done, but for the untrained, this is the simple Crayola Barney Style for getting it done. Once you have practiced it, the more you do it, the faster it happens. If anyone doesnt understand how I explained it, please ask and I will clarify in more detail!

[izzyscout21]

^^ I couldn't have said it better myself