Horses

[RedJohn]

Would not they be the best transportation ever? No need for gas or costly parts, they can breed to give more transportation (or food if needed).

Anybody thinking of horses for transportation?

[LUNCHBOX]

We have two, a quarter and a hunter/jumper. The jumper is a little gun skittish right now but the qtr is a 15 year retired Mounted Patrol horse from our department. IMO...I was actually thinking maybe mules or donkies. I still am not sure due to the fact they could spook and run off or you get used to having to much gear and they get popped. They might work better once you get settled in somewhere if things did go wrong.

[RedJohn]

I agree as a BOL transportation, not a going to a BOL. I am hoping one day to leave at my BOL, if/when I can acquire one.

[Grumpy Old Man]

If you wish to consider horses as an alternate form of transportation, you better already have them. Horses are a time and monetary investment that has a steep learning curve. I have a 20 y.o. Arabian gelding and a 10 y.o. Paint Mare. I don't ride as much as I used to, but I've had these guys so long we know each other well. Realistically, if this is a line of thought you are willing to pursue, find a stable and take riding lessons. This will shorten the learning curve. It will also tell you if this is something you want to pursue. You can often lease a horse from a boarder at the stable so that you can learn the ground tasks (grooming, tack maintenance, worming, etc.) as well. And finally, horses are partners in the truest sense of the word. You'll need to find one that you can bond with if you're going to rely on them for survival.

[bacpacker]

+1 G. O. M.
You gotta know your horse, mule, whatever before you need it. There are many skills needed.

I have been thinking along these lines, although from a slightly different standpoint. My main plans are for a bug in, instead of bugging out. I do a lot of gardening/hobby farming and I'm trying to get sefl suffeicent from that standpoint. If fuel should become unavailable or unaffordable, once I run out of my storage I will have to revert to "farming" from the 1800's more or less. I thiunk a team of mules or horses would be invaluable in that situation.

I have purchased a few horse drawn peice's of equipment and am constantly on the lookout for other select peices. I have never worked animals so I know there is a huge learning curve to it, but I've found a couple places that have a "Farm Day" type event where they work plowing, mowing, etc. They will let folks get in and work to try to teach newcomers. I think that's the route I'm gonna try first. I have looked at several breeds and the Suffolk draft horses seem to fit the bill for what I'm lookin for. Either that or a good team of mules.

Lookin back 40 years, my uncle always raised horses and mules and always worked his tobacco and garden patch with them. He never let a tractor in either spot, said they compacted the ground too much. I sure wish I had spent more time with him and learned from him. Unfortunatly he passed back in the late 80's.

[Grumpy Old Man]

bacpacker, given your AO you ought to be able to find a mule pull somewhere close. The are like tractor pulls but done the old way with draft mules and horses. The folks that compete could help you out as well. The winners are usually folks that work their animals on a daily basis. There are also a lot of folks there with stock for sale, though it may not be advertised. Also, any Amish locally? They have stock and tack and equipment. They aren't particularly fond of us "English", but they do like our money.

[bacpacker]

I'm sure there are mule pulls around. The "farm days" I mentioned are similar in nature, folks who actually work their stuff. They do have sales at some of them. The big thing to me is being able to work with someone and learn from them what to do and not to do.
There are some amish a ways off. I've been fairly successful at using craiglist and just driving around and looking for stuff sitting around.
I still have a ways to go before I get horses anyway. Fences to be built, barn to be built, and access to more land for hay, cause I know horses and mules love to eat. :)

[Stg1swret]

The Amish may be a little stand offish, but if you respect them and their ways, they are more then willing to help and teach. It just takes some time and effort to cultivate some trust and understanding.

[dragon5126]

Not all Amish are as willing to allow outsiders around their animals in all areas these days. Many have become verys suspicious due to the numbers of then who have been nailed to the wall on animal abuse in recent years, while others treat their horses better thna their families We have a Percheron that was literally rescued from an Amish farm that took forever to get settled down, the second she heard a loud vice she would spook, afraid that she would be whipped, we couldnt even call her out of the paddok without her starling and running. Now she is constantly being yeled at for her antics, like trying to suck on someones head or lick their neck, she has learnd it isnt volume but tone of voice finally and has turned into the biggest lover I have ever seen, constantly demanding full blown around the neck hugs. We have 14 horses on the ranch, and she is the biggest,and the gentlest of them all.

As for a means of transportation, think buckboard not horseback. Horses need a lot more food and water than the layman realizes, and you will need to tailor your routes to this need (something the tv westerns never showed). When you add weight to their backs their needs for energy and water increase. A lighter wagon puts the weight on the ground and allows inerta to carry much of the effort once they are moving. it also increases their ability to do more work... So you can see livestock based transportation is not as simple as it seems.

[Stormfeather]

Im all for horses as a BOV, I can ride, but other than that, not alot of experience with them. But I can see the positive side to having transportation that can also be a food source as well!

[ladyhk13]

I agree with with all of you. Bacpacker you are right on. That is what we are planning. I know that we can get our riding horses for free in our area (yours too bacpacker since you are close to the area I'm talking about). I plan on donkey's for my lifestock since I have heard that they are great against predators, several large work horses for the farming - and I would actually love to ride them as well. The good thing for me is that the realtor that is looking for our propert for us is also an ex jockey and been around horses his whole life so we will be able to learn from him and he will be able to help us greatly. What a wonderful mentor. I can ride and connect with a horse but as far as giving shots or shoeing I have no clue!

[Dropy]

Once we move to alsaka permanantly we be getting some horses for the farm/lodge/homeplace.

[LUNCHBOX]

Going tomorrow to pick up my youngest (shes 4) daughter a pony for her birthday. She hounds us to put her on our horses and its just to soon. Later on she will be ready, training-training-training.

[realist]

Lots of good points. You are so right when it comes to the cost of horses, they are expensive. I haven't had one that would pull a piece of equipment but I have worked them with cattle in the past. It seems along with everything else it tack has gone through the roof. Do not expect to buy a horse and call it good. They have to be ridden frequently in order to make them more reliable. The may not take gasoline but you still have to feed them. Yes you can put them out to pasture but you have to have the pasture. If not then the hay takes up a tremendous amount of space. I'm in an area that does not get snow. I would think that in a situation where there is not tractors that to get in enough hay for a winter would be a huge time commitment. Their feet have to be maintained or they will not be able to move anything. It is easy to call up the farrier or horseshoer to have a set of shoes put on but in a SHTF situation you will need to do this yourself. It is not that hard but you want to make sure that you learn how to do it or you can lame up a horse fast. I guess in a pinch you can even eat them, I know most people think of them as pets, it just needed to be said. How many are you going to need in a SHTF situation. My opinion is that at least one for each person and one spare for every two people. If you are going to do any packing you need to plan extra. If you are going to breed them then you will need extra since the brood mares will not be able to be ridden when until they foal. So are they worth it, well how do you like walking.

BTW you can't just take a horse out an shoot off them or you will land on your head after they throw you. It takes time an training and then some will not tolerate it at all. I would imagine this would go for donkeys and mules as well.

[bacpacker]

You are exactly right on the work tending to horses and the volume of work that would be required to feed them. For 2 people and the ability to have a pack train. I would think you would need 4-5 horses. From my experience raising cattle (and I assume horses would require close to the same amount of feed as cows) around this area you need a minimum of 1-2 acres of pasture per head and a similar amount to grow hay for the winter. For the 5 head that means 10-20 acres just for the horses, plus cattle, goats, sheep, orchard, gardens, vineyards, and anything else you need land for.
Working horses to work the garden, hay fields, grain fields (corn, wheat, other feed stocks will take up a lot of time. On the other hand, to raise the food crops you need to survive a long term situation you will have to do all the work by hand which will take at least as long and will not produce the amount you would get with the animals. Plus you would be doing all travel on foot or bicycle probably.
If SHTF I don't see life being easy regardless of how you work it. All this is assuming SHTF ends up being a long term proposition. farming is one thing I know how to do and I feel like I could make a go of it by going the farming route. I may well be wrong but it's what I'm preparing just as fast as I can.

[dragon5126]

I agree with with all of you. Bacpacker you are right on. That is what we are planning. I know that we can get our riding horses for free in our area (yours too bacpacker since you are close to the area I'm talking about). I plan on donkey's for my lifestock since I have heard that they are great against predators, several large work horses for the farming - and I would actually love to ride them as well. The good thing for me is that the realtor that is looking for our propert for us is also an ex jockey and been around horses his whole life so we will be able to learn from him and he will be able to help us greatly. What a wonderful mentor. I can ride and connect with a horse but as far as giving shots or shoeing I have no clue!

Shots are a piece of cake. shoeing however is a learned and practiced skill, and for all intents and needs you should use a good farrier for this. Also from experience, shoes are not always needed, and can be a problem. if it's a pleasure horse, try to go without, if it's a hard working horse they are needed to protect the hoof. Shoes in the wrong conditions can create just as many problems as not having them when they are needed. This is a subject of massive controversy among people. Another issue with them is how you are keeping the horses, and their personalities, and how well the get along together. Horses kick each other, shoes make bruises into lacerations and some of them very serious.

[dragon5126]

You are exactly right on the work tending to horses and the volume of work that would be required to feed them. For 2 people and the ability to have a pack train. I would think you would need 4-5 horses. From my experience raising cattle (and I assume horses would require close to the same amount of feed as cows) around this area you need a minimum of 1-2 acres of pasture per head and a similar amount to grow hay for the winter. For the 5 head that means 10-20 acres just for the horses, plus cattle, goats, sheep, orchard, gardens, vineyards, and anything else you need land for.
Working horses to work the garden, hay fields, grain fields (corn, wheat, other feed stocks will take up a lot of time. On the other hand, to raise the food crops you need to survive a long term situation you will have to do all the work by hand which will take at least as long and will not produce the amount you would get with the animals. Plus you would be doing all travel on foot or bicycle probably.
If SHTF I don't see life being easy regardless of how you work it. All this is assuming SHTF ends up being a long term proposition. farming is one thing I know how to do and I feel like I could make a go of it by going the farming route. I may well be wrong but it's what I'm preparing just as fast as I can.

Cattle are much easier to feed than horses. Equines require much higher protein levels than cattle since they are a working animal, the same goes for oxen over cattle. Also believe it or not, a horses pulmonary system is much more primitive (notice the huffing when you ride one?) while it works for moving plenty of oxygen into their blood, it makes them super sensitive to mold in the hay they eat where cattle will just maow down on it. Horses should also be fed a balanced grain blend or processed feed to help cover what they may lack in the hay due to the season of growth it was cut from (early season hay is less nutritious). Horses are definetly a major undertaking, and IF you have a full farm, you can be self sufficent with them, but they will eat a substantial part of what they help produce while doing it. Our Percheron alone, consumes almost a full bale of hay a day not counting grains and suppliments, add 15 to 20 gallons of water depending on weather, and you start to get an idea of their needs, and she is just a pleasure horse, but is the class of horse that would be used to plow and draw heavily loaded wagons.

[realist]

Dragon you are so right cattle are much more easier to raise than horses. However if you have the property to raise a bunch of cattle you will need to round them up, so as much as a pain they are horses are a necessity. In a SHTF situation most horses will be pasture fed rather than fed each night with a flake or two of hay. Dragon you must have a huge feed bill with your Percheron. Gone will be the days of the nice bails of alfalfa that was bought at the feed store because the fields are too far away, the bailer no longer works and there are no trucks to deliver it. The logistics of it all can be mind boggling. Okay I have four in my family that means they each get one horse and a pack horse so that is eight. Then I want a couple of spares so I'm at ten..........etc. Soooooooo if you really are doing it right you need a good size ranch or access to a large chunk of BLM land or national forest. There is no way you will be able to do it all without major difficulties. However it can be done just make sure you do your home work. Remember if you want to plow, pull a cart or wagon that is a thing that would need to be mastered. I guess what it comes down to it the first one or two horses are really time consuming because you are aware of their every little need. However as your herd grows the time spent with each one is less and less. The ranch that I worked on was my Uncle's. He would turn the majority of them out each winter and then we would round them back up a couple of weeks before the summer roundup. If they all made it through the winter, we did not have snow, then things were good.

One other thing that you hit on was shoeing. If you are really going to be working the horses you will want shoes. If you are going to do this yourself you really need to learn correctly. The hoof needs to be trimmed and shaped. Shoes need to be properly fitted and then nailed on. Nailed incorrectly and you have problems. For the most part when we got in the horses off the range they were usually in pretty good shape. I found that it was the horses that were in the more confined spaces that we had more problems. I guess that is why the place with one or two horses has to pay more close attention. Just a few thoughts..........

[bacpacker]

Dragon, Realist, you guys are dead on with your thoughts. Most folks I have known have always tried to feed Alfalfa to get extra protein for the horses and have it as clean as possible.
Percheron's or Belguin's are the 2 breeds I have looked at in particular. Percherons are slightly smaller, so I assume would be less costly to feed. Both breeds are great draft horses. for the 2 of us, I think we could get by with 3-4 head to work/ride/pack in decent shape. Even so I don't have enough land right now to handle them. I figure it would take a good 10 or so acres just for the horses.
Learning the Farrier and Vet skills would also be a premium that would have to be addressed ASAP.

[ladyhk13]

I had wanted draft horses to ride as my first choice (right now there is a Percheron for sale for $300. in the paper) and to use on the property. But since our friend can get us horses for free that may change...may end up with 2 draft horses and 2 riding horses. I want them pasture fed as much of the year as possible and that goes to all of the animals we get unless they have to have special food due to their health and not because people say "well that's just the way it's done." We plan on at least 100 acres so I am pretty sure we can raise the animals we want on that without a problem. We may have to bale hay for winter if we get snow but I really want to plant native grasses, clover, alphalfa and other covers that will continue to regenerate and rotate the animals so the pastures regrow. I would really like to go back to the old ways of pasture fed everything. No grains/corn to fatten anything up for "marbling"...just all natural.
We will have to learn more about the anatomy/physiology of horses to make sure they are taken care of properly though because so many things can go wrong. And guys...Do we have to talk about eating our pets again????:eek:

[Sparrow]

It used to be, only a few decades ago, that the upfront cost for a horse wasn't something attainable to most people. At that time the cost of stabling and care was relatively low. Now, in many, many cases in all of North America you can get a good horse for virtually free if you can prove that you'll provide a good home (and they won't just be sold to slaughter). Or you could go to one of the many auctions, online ads, rescue groups etc ... to obtain a good low cost horse.

I got my TB from a rescue for a few pennies. She has amazing breeding, is simply breathtaking, sweet to me and her family ... intelligent as a whip. But like most Tbs, needs special care for her feet which adds up to quite a bit every year. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

So if anyone wants to talk horses - let me know! Right now I am reading: The Man Who Listens to Horses - Monty Roberts. I am only on the first chapter ... but it is great already! With the concept of 'joining-up' with a horse instead of breaking them. Which I can identify with!

If you are in Canada I can help you locate rescues, we have a great facebook group for matching horses to owners. Also links to rescues in the US as well.

[ladyhk13]

So if anyone wants to talk horses - let me know! Right now I am reading: The Man Who Listens to Horses - Monty Roberts. I am only on the first chapter ... but it is great already! With the concept of 'joining-up' with a horse instead of breaking them. Which I can identify with!



Sparrow, I have always believed in that...my favorite way to get to know a horse was always to go up to it and lean into its belly and just feel him/her breathe,,,and then breathe with it...close my eyes and let my weight into the horse and feel the warmth. I've never had any training with horses and haven't been on one in years but I can't wait to have one again some day!

[Sparrow]

Sparrow, I have always believed in that...my favorite way to get to know a horse was always to go up to it and lean into its belly and just feel him/her breathe,,,and then breathe with it...close my eyes and let my weight into the horse and feel the warmth. I've never had any training with horses and haven't been on one in years but I can't wait to have one again some day!

That is beautiful. I am going to try that: learn into her belly, and breath with her. I have breathed with her but only when my arms are around her neck. Oh I bet she'll love it ... I know I will!

Do you know the rescue groups around you?

[ladyhk13]

That is beautiful. I am going to try that: learn into her belly, and breath with her. I have breathed with her but only when my arms are around her neck. Oh I bet she'll love it ... I know I will!

Do you know the rescue groups around you?

No, I'm not sure there are close by. We are more of a cow area. But once we find our final BOL and get it organized we'll get some horses through our realtor...he's an ex jockey so knows everything horse!

[dragon5126]

Dragon you are so right cattle are much more easier to raise than horses. However if you have the property to raise a bunch of cattle you will need to round them up, so as much as a pain they are horses are a necessity. In a SHTF situation most horses will be pasture fed rather than fed each night with a flake or two of hay. Dragon you must have a huge feed bill with your Percheron.

One other thing that you hit on was shoeing. If you are really going to be working the horses you will want shoes. If you are going to do this yourself you really need to learn correctly. The hoof needs to be trimmed and shaped. Shoes need to be properly fitted and then nailed on. Nailed incorrectly and you have problems. For the most part when we got in the horses off the range they were usually in pretty good shape. I found that it was the horses that were in the more confined spaces that we had more problems. I guess that is why the place with one or two horses has to pay more close attention. Just a few thoughts.......... Fortunately we have the land and we "farm out" (pun intended) the bailing to limit the work required. If/when it hits the cattle farm up the road will need help... and our horses will be pastured. Also since we have a river and well, water is no issue, neither is people feed due to land and game... As for working horses and shoes go as I noted it is a controversy at it's finest. What I have learned from shoe-ers, farriers and trimmers seems to come to an unagreed consensus even though if you put them all in the same room together it wouldnt happen. It depends on the ground they would be working. If there is a constant wetness shoes are not good, same for sticky ground, wet leads to fungal growth, particularly if it's constantly trapped under the shoes. Sticky ground constantly pulling the shoes causes splitting and damages the hoofs and can lead to permanent injury . Hard and rocky ground absolutely requires shoes to protect the hoof. Draft horses pulling heavy loads need shoes to prevent excessive wear of the hoofs, and here special shoes, with replaceable "soles" cut from car and truck tire tread have become rather popular, as well as for horses with bone issues. It also helps protect other horses if you have a kicker... these are often easy to repair if a template is made as all they are is a thinned down shoe that is drilled and tapped with the overlay of treaded rubber glued and screwed in place. My first experience with these was on a horse with nuvicular that kept throwing the normal padded type shoe.

Another irony I've faced is ten years back I would have had a good belly laugh if someone ever told me I'd be working with horses... now I have them following me around like puppies...

[dragon5126]

No, I'm not sure there are close by. We are more of a cow area. But once we find our final BOL and get it organized we'll get some horses through our realtor...he's an ex jockey so knows everything horse!

Check out Craigs list, you will be suprised!

[Optimist]

I'd recommend to you Monty Roberts' book, The Man Who Listens To Horses, as a good place to start. More info there on how the horse-critter works than you'll find most places. Insofar as horses are concerned, you don't own them, they own you. It is like a wolf-critter dog, or a house cat, it plays by a set of rules that are different than naked ape rules, and if you want to keep it happy, and healthy, you have to play by its rules. Me, I love the big skittish things, but they are a serious time obligation if you are going to treat 'em right. It has much in common with being married in the degree of obligation.

[rice paddy daddy]

Lots of good info on this thread. The main point is that horses take lots of time/money/love/patience, but most important of all - a certain level of knowledge.
We have three horses, all rescues. One that's a blend of quarter horse with something else, came to us from a bad divorce situation. One is an appaloosa that my wife says is a POA (ponies of America) rescued from in line to get on the slaughter truck. And the last (I hope) is a registered quarter horse that was part of a law enforcement abuse seizure.
I'm just a city boy, don't even know how to ride, the wife is the horse person.
Horses are expensive to maintain. I built stables, one for each, with an attatched feed room. There's hay to buy, a round bale out in the pasture @ $55 a pop, square bales @ $4.50 each (we get a good deal on our hay). There's grain, alfalfa cubes, shreded beet pulp. Before the budget cuts we added a feed-thru fly contol to their grain (works really good). Don't forget the Sweet PDZ to sprinkle in the stalls after you fork out the manure. We buy fine white sand by the dump truck load to spread in the stalls.
There's hoof care - you will go thru a few incompetant/overpriced farriers before you find the right one. We don't shoe, but the hooves still need to be trimmed every 6 to 8 weeks.
You will learn to medicate and treat your horse - large animal vets ain't cheap.
You must be willing to spend time with your horse, besides the usual brushing and hoof picking - a bored horse can be destructive.

All-in-all, horses are an expensive proposition, but the rewards are great. Horses make my wife happy, my main job in life is to make my wife happy, ergo we have horses.
I could no more imagine life without horses than I could without our dogs.

edited to add: if your satelite or cable provider offers RFD-TV (Rural America's Most Important Network) there's lots of good equine programming on, including people like Monty Roberts.