What would be the best bet for a BOV.

[tompnoid]

I guess this would probably differ for each of us depending on weather terrain knowledge abilities ect.

i am thinking qualities motor horse power weight capacity

1. 4 wheel drive utmost here in the woods and mountians
2. carbureted emp hits this will still run and with minor modifications it will run on alcohol or kerosene
3. has to be a 350 ci motor at bare minimum
4. for me gas mileage matters but not as much as the ability to haul large loads or push other vehicles even tow capacity
5. has to hold 2000lbs easily
6. ground clearance minimum 18 inches
8. i want it made of steel don't care that it is heavy
9. i want a positronic rear end this means wheel goes flat it will still go forward
10. i want room in the engine bay to work on it if you cant reach the alternator or water pump life becomes alot harder if it breaks down.
11. i want it to be a common vehicle chevy preferably gmc i dont drive rice and think ford sucks balls
12. i want the heater to work.

[cwconnertx]

18 inches ground clearance is a lot!, you probably need to scale that back unless you can run portal axles or 44 inch tires. To clear with a normal truck axle you will need 44 or 46 inch tires to clear 18 inches.

There is no such thing as a positronic rear end, I would consider a detroit locker.

You really ought to consider gas mileage, when leaving houston for hurricane rita many many people ran out of fuel.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Not many vehicles with 44 inch or larger tires can hold 2000 pounds easily, and none of them are common vehicles, you
will really need something un-common to get everything you are requesting. Something like a deuce and a half has many of those qualities, but not all.

I can make a few recommendations, scale the ground clearance back a bit, and look at a 12 valve, manual transmission four wheel drive dodge diesel, 89 - 97
would be the target years. The drive train is great, but the rest of the truck not so much, but it fits the bill in many ways
As a gasoline powered option to get out of electronics you'll need to go older, consider a 73-80 chevrolet 3/4 or 1 ton, with either 350 or 454 engine. Get a manual or turbo400
automatic, both are rock solid. Suburbans of the 3/4 ton variety from these years also work.

What you probably mean by positronic rear end is a positrac year end, which is a type of limited slip. A detroit locker would be available for either of these vehicles, so
that is a better stronger more reliable choice. Also more predictable, some people say a mechanical locker is bad on snow and ice, but in my experience they work fine and are
more predictable because you know they will lock, as opposed to a limited slip which has more "play".

Do some research, you will make a better choice if you learn a little more about vehicles, particularly drive train and suspension.

[Sniper-T]

Well said cwc...

From the sounds of things... you want a mil-spec humvee, or at the very least a first edition hummer. but even at that, you'll still have to do some extensive modifications. ie make a hauling truck out of a people carrier. The other issue, is that even those only had 16" clearance, and the wheel well is almost full. If you want to stretch that to 18, you'll need a serious lift kit.

And if you want to add that kind of capacity, you'll need to redo the suspension too.

Hummer H1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummer_H1)

[hank2222]

I guess this would probably differ for each of us depending on weather terrain knowledge abilities ect.

i am thinking qualities motor horse power weight capacity

1. 4 wheel drive utmost here in the woods and mountians
2. carbureted emp hits this will still run and with minor modifications it will run on alcohol or kerosene
3. has to be a 350 ci motor at bare minimum
4. for me gas mileage matters but not as much as the ability to haul large loads or push other vehicles even tow capacity
5. has to hold 2000lbs easily
6. ground clearance minimum 18 inches
8. i want it made of steel don't care that it is heavy
9. i want a positronic rear end this means wheel goes flat it will still go forward
10. i want room in the engine bay to work on it if you cant reach the alternator or water pump life becomes alot harder if it breaks down.
11. i want it to be a common vehicle chevy preferably gmc i dont drive rice and think ford sucks balls
12. i want the heater to work.


18 inches ground clearance is a lot!, you probably need to scale that back unless you can run portal axles or 44 inch tires. To clear with a normal truck axle you will need 44 or 46 inch tires to clear 18 inches.

There is no such thing as a positronic rear end, I would consider a detroit locker.

You really ought to consider gas mileage, when leaving houston for hurricane rita many many people ran out of fuel.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Not many vehicles with 44 inch or larger tires can hold 2000 pounds easily, and none of them are common vehicles, you
will really need something un-common to get everything you are requesting. Something like a deuce and a half has many of those qualities, but not all.

I can make a few recommendations, scale the ground clearance back a bit, and look at a 12 valve, manual transmission four wheel drive dodge diesel, 89 - 97
would be the target years. The drive train is great, but the rest of the truck not so much, but it fits the bill in many ways
As a gasoline powered option to get out of electronics you'll need to go older, consider a 73-80 chevrolet 3/4 or 1 ton, with either 350 or 454 engine. Get a manual or turbo400
automatic, both are rock solid. Suburbans of the 3/4 ton variety from these years also work.

What you probably mean by positronic rear end is a positrac year end, which is a type of limited slip. A detroit locker would be available for either of these vehicles, so
that is a better stronger more reliable choice. Also more predictable, some people say a mechanical locker is bad on snow and ice, but in my experience they work fine and are
more predictable because you know they will lock, as opposed to a limited slip which has more "play".

Do some research, you will make a better choice if you learn a little more about vehicles, particularly drive train and suspension.


My first bug out vehicle was a 1980 chevy suburban that lift about 2.inchs to put a bigger set of tires and the whole thing was reworked front to back with diff items we would have need to get home to Az from any miliary base we where stationed at .My farther put it togerther to get the wife and kids home safe he found it in a dealer ship here where the person order it and never came and picked it up and the person at the time put some extra things into it

Here is a partial list of things we had did to the vehicle to make it more useable for us as a family leaving the area we where stationed at .
4.wheel drive
automatic transmisson for the wife to be able to drive it
skid plates on the enigne and transmisson
heavy duty front bumper with bult in ram bars and bult in wrinch set up
heavy duty rear bumper with bult in ram bars to push things out of the way
multi lights on the vehicle to light up the night for driving
roof rack with ladder
extra fuel tank add to the vehicle to extend the range
metal bars and thin wire mesh over the gas tanks to protect them .The unit where design to come off as it was need to make repairs to the gas tank
dark green color
wire mesh screens we could put onto the windows to help protect them from dirt or rocks along with all the lights having mesh screens .the mesh screens rode inside the truck in the rear of the vehicle cargo hold in there own special carrying system to hold them
all weather tires on heavy duty military truck tire rims set up with two spares .
dual battie system to use it as it need
dual front bucket seats with rear brench seating .We could make the brench seating set up a flat bed unit with a piece of plywood to let the kids lay down on and sleep on if need when driving long distance ..The mesh screen in the rear cargo layed flat after it was unhooked from the sides of the truck and it made part of the platfrom that was used for sleeping on
bult in console with diff radios and control switchs for all the items we had on the unit

my dad completely went through the vehicle to make sure it would get us home in a time of need .He felt that if we had to run it was going to be bad and wanted something that would get us home.That truck is still on the road and one of the kids has it right now in Nc area where they are stationed at and it looks like a daily driver and it get ok gas milage but it was design to get them home if needed .

[Sniper-T]

Tom, It sounds like you're wanting something like this:

4x4 Bus | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/d90_crazy/191508576/)

Personally, I'd go with more reasonable tires, but this thing would be the ultimate hunting buggy!

[Dropy]

PERSONALLY i would go with a doge power wagon with just about ANY dodge motor in it. Another consideration on my list is a ford 3/4 ton or larger. If ya go with a half ton or grab a full size bronco then a 300 straight 6 would be a helluva motor to have in it.

I am a ford guy, cant stand anything chevy....worked on too many. They just dont do it for me. Have never had a ford or dodge let me down other than a few VERY simple minor easily fixxed issues.

But no matter what you buy do research and build her right.

[Echo2]

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5279/5901039476_87fc554ee7_z.jpg

[Fatty]

thats looking pretty good echo!

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

ECHO2
Sweet, I like that, it says "KISS" all over it! Does it still have the throttle body or did you modify it? The spare tire rack, how does that work? I'm looking for one that will swing out to the right. That "Urban Assault Vehicle" sure looks stout. "BZ" man!



Be safe.............the night is your friend.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

I guess this would probably differ for each of us depending on weather terrain knowledge abilities ect.

i am thinking qualities motor horse power weight capacity

1. 4 wheel drive utmost here in the woods and mountians
2. carbureted emp hits this will still run and with minor modifications it will run on alcohol or kerosene
3. has to be a 350 ci motor at bare minimum
4. for me gas mileage matters but not as much as the ability to haul large loads or push other vehicles even tow capacity
5. has to hold 2000lbs easily
6. ground clearance minimum 18 inches
8. i want it made of steel don't care that it is heavy
9. i want a positronic rear end this means wheel goes flat it will still go forward
10. i want room in the engine bay to work on it if you cant reach the alternator or water pump life becomes alot harder if it breaks down.
11. i want it to be a common vehicle chevy preferably gmc i dont drive rice and think ford sucks balls
12. i want the heater to work.

This almost fits your criteria:

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/8562/11498105.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/11498105.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Yes, it's almost done........bleed out the brake lines. Re-tourque the U-bolts on the rear differential. At's about it. I had to do a "Complete" rebuild on the rear end. New carrier, detroit locker with limited 1/4 turn slip. It saves your rear end from destroying itself (axles, side gears) when you have dual tires. New 4:10 Ring and Pinion all Bearings and brakes. Don't ask how much. I was doing everything just fine until I got to installing the new carrier. I wasn't going to spend $350 on a one time tool (differential spreader) so I just dropped it (rear end)and took it in and had them finish it for me. Balanced the drive shaft while I had that out too. I have a set of General Grabber AT2's at the ready to throw on right now. Then back to road warrior road testing.
NOTEPositraction is great if you're planning on mudding all the time. But you have to put things in to perspective, on the road, short turn radius, making any urns for that matter. The more meat (rubber) you put on the pavement, the more strain you put on those axles in a tight turn, you need some sort of give/slip. What is your reality driving like? The one I have will give a 1/4 turn and then grab. Pretty sweet.


Be safe.............the night is your friend.

[Echo2]

I helped with the build....bracketing.... bumpers....etc.

The tire rack folds downward to use as a step to get into the back.

The whole thing is sprayed with gray bed liner...the trim and such are black bed liner.

Brand new everything on the bottom..5 speed tranny...diffs....wheels.....springs...shocks...li fted 5".....reman 454 with HP TPI and MSR ignition....new AC front and back...all new seals around glass...new sound system....with 8 speakers...new wind shield.....1000w inverter...dual batts...massive alternator.....new vinyl floor cover.....new drive shafts with e brake....standard and electric fans.....triple core radiator....oil cooler.....tranny cooler....massive disc brakes....HP booster for master cylinder and clutch. switches to kill all lights interior and exterior.....aux lighting inside....bunch of other crap.





Oh...wait.....you said reasonable....please disregard.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Obee whan, please tell me more about this tire rack. Did you build it? Can you send a picture with it opened up? Got my interest on this one. I appreciate-cha!

Be safe.............the night is your friend.

[Echo2]

Obee whan, please tell me more about this tire rack. Did you build it? Can you send a picture with it opened up? Got my interest on this one. I appreciate-cha!

Be safe.............the night is your friend.

will do when I get home....

[IDTANDY]

Something like this as a base,this ones had a lot of work.

http://www.oldcaronline.com/printer_page.php?ad_id=432172

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Something like this as a base,this ones had a lot of work.

http://www.oldcaronline.com/printer_page.php?ad_id=432172

At's a big ass truck! I like the ladder there for a size comparison. Guess you'll be needing that to get in and out too?



Be safe...............the night is your friend.

[Dropy]

Pound for pound you CANNOT beat an old power wagon. They wasnt built to be pertty, they was built to be strong, reliable and.....strong.

[slowz1k]

That W500 is the Beef!

Though it doesn't fit the criteria listed in the OP, I believe the Jeep Cherokee should be a contender for "best all round BOV".
My reasoning is this:
1. The 4.0 (I-6) is a tried and true engine that with maintenance will easily run over 275,000. Has good torque, and is easy to work on.
2. Parts are readily available. The design hasn't changed much since the late 80's, plus you can't swing a dead cat on the street corner without hitting a Jeep cherokee... They're everywhere.
3. Tons of aftermarket parts to make it a better/stronger trail rig.
4. Decent amount of room for people and gear... Add a trailer if needed.
5. Small enough to negotiate tight trails where a full size might get hungup.
6. This my favorite....They are relatively inexpensive (cheap).

If or when I build a dedicated BOV, I really think I'll start with the Cherokee platform.
Below is a pic of what I would roughly be shooting for.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-t8EcfChpD0s/Th_lFVKmnfI/AAAAAAAACiA/cttZ0yuYk3Q/s320/4wd_01_z%252Bjeep_cherokee_xj%252Bfront_1.jpg

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

The wife and I just picked up these "his and hers" we traded in the K5 and the 1 ton dually! What do you think? They'll need new paint, a few adjustments here and there but I think they'll do the trick.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2245/bovs.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/bovs.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Be safe...............the night is your friend.

[slowz1k]

The wife and I just picked up these "his and hers" we traded in the K5 and the 1 ton dually! What do you think? They'll need new paint, a few adjustments here and there but I think they'll do the trick.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2245/bovs.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/bovs.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Be safe...............the night is your friend.

LOL!!!! Nice!!! Did they come with a matching pair of these?
http://www.firstdefense.com/html/Combat%20Helmet.jpeg

[Sniper-T]

painting them pink and blue?

[Dropy]

painting them pink and blue?


I doubt riverrat would want pink...but maybe the pink camo theme?

=D

[Sniper-T]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z40/she_reb4u2/IMG_0224.jpg

??

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z40/she_reb4u2/IMG_0224.jpg

??

LOVE THE PIPES BROTHER! Needs a little more green, the wife said yellow to match the his and her 4 wheelers. Oh yeah, that will hide well.......The "Big eyes" on top I stole from "Johnny Five" robot off that Short Circuit movie. Hated that stupid robot/movie anyway. (showing my age again)

Be safe.............the night is your friend.

[Twitchy]

I'll take one of these... Izzy's affection for these has apparently rubbed off a bit...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Stryker_ICV_front_q.jpg/300px-Stryker_ICV_front_q.jpg

[Stormfeather]

I keep telling ya folks. . . . shadowhawk is the way to go! heheh! Of course we all dont have that extra 750K stashed away for one, but yea, we can always dream! If not one of those, then definitely the Knights Conquest ( http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/07/conquest-vehicles-announces-2012-knight-xv-specs-and-pricing.html ) vehicle would be for me!

[izzyscout21]

I'll take one of these... Izzy's affection for these has apparently rubbed off a bit...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Stryker_ICV_front_q.jpg/300px-Stryker_ICV_front_q.jpg


My chariot............

[realist]

You know you would be amazed at what you can get at some of those raffles or bingo games..........

The problem with those things is I do not even have the money to fill the tank let alone keeping it maintained.

But yes we can always dream

[Sniper-T]

This could be fun!

http://pal-v.com/

Sure knock some time off the daily commute!

[FL-Jeeper]

Top priorities for a BOV:

Reliability & availability of parts. Several mentions have already been made about a carbureted SB Chevy platform. It is certainly a proven powerplant while parts are plentiful, generally widely available from both salvage yards & parts stores... & they are stoopid simple to work on. I've got a SBC400 & a TH400 transmission sitting in the corner that will find its way into my 08 Wrangler at some point in the future.

Maneuverability & capability. Imagine trying to un-ass the AO & the roads are a parking lot. Having the ability to negotiate narrow passages, roadside ditches, washouts, water fording, pushing or pulling disabled vehicles out of your way could well be instrumental to a successful BO.

IMHO, everything else is secondary and should be planned around the above attributes... Being able to haul 2k lbs of supplies don't mean squat if you can't get that fully loaded rig more than a few miles down the road~ and your forced to "ruck up" what you can carry & continue on foot.

[xusualsuspectx]

Here's our BOV. I built the roof rack. The camp is camoclad. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/MOCRAWLER417/suburban/DSCN0053.jpg

[robsdak]

now being new here and not wanting to piss people off. but wouldn't a good Bug Out Vehicle be, whatever was close and running? (said with some humor)

but my first choice would be a Military Issue Humvee.

[mitunnelrat]

All depends on whether or not you're talking about a running vehicle you have a legal claim to, rob

2.No discussion of illegal activities. No discussions of illegally modifying firearms, radios or vehicles. If the local DA and police frown on it, don't discuss it here.

[robsdak]

well of coarse, why would you need to steal one? don't most have 2 cars nowadays? just meant, if your BOV wasn't quite ready and you need to go NOW! i would much rather take the truck, but would drive the car.

[slowz1k]

Here's our BOV. I built the roof rack. The camp is camoclad. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/MOCRAWLER417/suburban/DSCN0053.jpg

Very nice!
I love the older body style Burbans, especially the 89's grill config.
Do you have the tailgate or barn doors on that one? Any more mods?

[Sniper-T]

came accross this video again. I don't remember if I shared it here...

A set of tire chains for that greasy mud, and this thing would be just about unstoppable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk6KJXeOM0k&feature=youtu.be

[xusualsuspectx]

Thanks! I love the older style bodies too. This one has barn doors. It has a 4 " lift and I also installed air bags in the rear to help with extra weight. For communication I installed a Yaesu FT-2800M. I also removed the carpet so I can hose the truck out when it gets dirty. Its usually dirty! LOL! I built the rack for added hauling capacity. Im installing a dual battery set up. I also have a winch,but I still need to build a bumper.
Very nice!
I love the older body style Burbans, especially the 89's grill config.
Do you have the tailgate or barn doors on that one? Any more mods?

[ladyhk13]

That almost looks like my Blazer!

[bacpacker]

Nice rig! What antenna are you running with the Yeasu?

[Gunfixr]

I just got mine back on the road, in time for the hurricane.

Went to get it inspected (required yearly), and the front brakes were a mess, and the rear had a seal leaking. Shop wanted about $800, and to replace stuff that didn't need replacing, probably due to laziness, less bolts to do and all that.
Anyway, after replacing the front brake lines and pads, and both rear seals, myself for under $150, I got her inspected the other day.
And then I had to fill her up, 32 gallons.

Oh, it's an '89 Ford Bronco, with a .351 cu inch engine, a bit of lift, and 35" tires. Not nearly the monster I used to have, but I am familiar with it, and it will go pretty much wherever I need to go.
I'll have to take a couple pics.

[xusualsuspectx]

LOL! Yes it does!
That almost looks like my Blazer!


Im using a wilson magnetic mount right now.

Nice rig! What antenna are you running with the Yeasu?

[TEOTWAWKI13]

http://sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html

I'll take one of these please. A-Team meets Bug Out Vehicle.

[xusualsuspectx]

http://sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html

I'll take one of these please. A-Team meets Bug Out Vehicle.

That thing is cool!!!

[Metrocruiser]

Yes that van is wicked. If i had the dough id love to get a van like that or like one of these 4x4 mercedes sprinter campers.
http://m.pinterest.com/source/sprinter-rv.com/

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

OK here's a shot of the "Short Bus from Hell" and it's "Big Brother" LadyHK's vehicle was completed today I finished the interior gut job, new wiring, seats, carpet and some sound proofing. She still has a hard time reaching the gas pedal, maybe she should use her hands I'm about to throw in the towel at this point..............These two have been my PITA's for the last year but well worth the effort. She got leather/power seats, center console, custom light switches, "flashy lights", bells and whistles..........no, no power windows, she don't get power windows, just more shit to wrong. I put in an extra fuse block for all the lights.......I still have a few minor things left to do like tweakin the carb and ignition system for power and economy. But one thing at a time ya know...........


http://imageshack.us/a/img198/933/1025919.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/1025919.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/6611/67163469.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/67163469.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img267/582/88527113.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/88527113.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img6/4443/52859391.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/52859391.jpg/)

[izzyscout21]

I like it. Looks great!

[bacpacker]

The work looks really good. I know your glad to see those projects windin down. It is a great feeling to have something you know is reliable to count on though.

[Evolver]

http://sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html

I'll take one of these please. A-Team meets Bug Out Vehicle.

Dang!!! This is really the shit!!! I've had a ongoing thought for years of the ultimate vehicle thats within reach and this is it!

I've had Jeeps, Land Cruisers, I've lifted Suburbans and Tahoe's and this one IS THE SHIT!!!!

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

http://sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html

I'll take one of these please. A-Team meets Bug Out Vehicle.

I think it's pretty slick except............... it's a "lotto" truck.and it won't hold up to the old EMP burst. Another great Idea by Ford though! I don't see anyone else coming up with a beast like this. Way to go Ford!

[Evolver]

Dang!!! This is really the shit!!! I've had a ongoing thought for years of the ultimate vehicle thats within reach and this is it!

I've had Jeeps, Land Cruisers, I've lifted Suburbans and Tahoe's and this one IS THE SHIT!!!!

I just looked into the price for one of these babies and you can get one for $90,000.00+. ;) Yup "lotto" truck.

[TEOTWAWKI13]

I live in the Chattanooga, TN/Ringgold, GA area, and saw a van similar to this for $15k. It was a few months back, but it was 4x4 and had the high top riser on it for camping and such. I'm sure you could rig it up your self to be how you wanted it to be....lift kits, etc.

[Sniper-T]

Hey BWRR, can you ziptie a block of wood to the gas pedal? Either that or give her a ski-pole! lol

That ford looks like a rounder softer version of a Land Cruiser.

badass!

I could do a lot of stupid in one of those!
:cool:

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Hey BWRR, can you ziptie a block of wood to the gas pedal? Either that or give her a ski-pole! lol

That ford looks like a rounder softer version of a Land Cruiser.

badass!

I could do a lot of stupid in one of those!
:cool:
I'm Laughin my arse off and she's not! Go figure, but.........I do have a plan coming in the mail.............Ooooooooh we're off the see the Lizard!

[ladyhk13]

Hey BWRR, can you ziptie a block of wood to the gas pedal? Either that or give her a ski-pole! lol

That ford looks like a rounder softer version of a Land Cruiser.

badass!

I could do a lot of stupid in one of those!
:cool:

Ok......Sniper Dude you are in such big trouble when I see you - kicks to the shins are coming your way. Blocks taped to the pedal? Come on now, I'm not driving the lawn mower here (yes, son actually did that to the riding mower for me so I could drive it - dh finally put clamps on it so it would stop spinning). Ski pole? Really? I was starting to think I was going to end up like Fred Flinstone.
You do know that it's not a Ford, right? Never a Ford (found on road dead) truck in this driveway...Chevy all the way.
If you were talking about the new Ford van like thing, isn't the nose really short compared to the Land Cruiser? It still looks like a van pretty much just with lots of stuff thrown on it.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

I live in the Chattanooga, TN/Ringgold, GA area, and saw a van similar to this for $15k. It was a few months back, but it was 4x4 and had the high top riser on it for camping and such. I'm sure you could rig it up your self to be how you wanted it to be....lift kits, etc.

Hell you're just over Mount Eagle from me............but back to the subject, there is that "DIY" pride of stepping back and knowing "you" did it. Sure it takes time if you have it and some money and know how. But that's half the fun and "pain".............again we didn't know you were that close, Hmmmmmmmm? We sure did look at a few properties in your neck-o-the-woods. Had some caves out there as well. Good country, things just didn't pan out.