Feeding a group

[bacpacker]

This topic is something I have been giving a great deal of thought to over the past few months. There has been a lot of discussion within this forum on the benefits of having a group to rely on, as opposed to going it alone. I know a lot of folks on this forum are either already in a working MAG, are working to build a MAG, or have at least discussed the possibility of a group getting together in a major SHTF situation. Others will be in much smaller family sized groups, whether 2 or 20. So here is my question, how have you working out the logistics of feeding this group long term? I know most everyone on here has some, or a lot of food stored. But in a long term situation all the stored food will run out at some point. What are your plans at then?

At this point I don't have set plans with a MAG. I have just been working on getting some ideas going for my wife and I, with the knowledge that my parents, and if they can get here from out of state maybe my sister, BIL, & Niece, plus 1 nephew could show up. The wife and I already grow a lot of our own food, maybe 60-75% of our non meat and dairy products. I don't think it will take a huge amount for us to ramp up to 100%. We have fruit trees, grape vines, and berry bushes planted and some are already producing. Our chickens are doing well and with our recent increase in flock size, have positioned ourselves to be able to bump up the size of the flock to be able to have plenty of meat for us and plenty of eggs for us and to barter. There are a few farmers around where we are that raise cattle and I feel sure I could pick up a bred heifer or two, or some calves for beef.

In a larger group situation situation, say 10-30 folks for example, food resources are going to be much more demanding. While I have between 1 and 2 acres committed right now to food production and would increase that to at least 4-5 with cattle, a larger group would need 15-50 acres, depending on soil and growing conditions and the size of the group. This will take a lot of hands to manage and a boat load of seed, fertilize, tools, storage, and preservation materials to prepare and put away the food needed to get thru a winter. Does your group have a person or three, designated as food production lead, or some such position to manage how much gets planted, where at, what kind of rotation, ect? Are certain folks mainly tasked to this, or does everyone rotate thru all jobs? What kind of planting seed storage plans do you have? For how many? For how long? Have the proper tools already been purchased, prepared, and stored? Are animals in the plans? Are there folks who know how to manage the livestock? Is water acessable for them?

I don't disagree at all about the need for more hands to defend a location, it makes perfect sense to me. I'm just trying to get my head around how to keep a larger number of folks fed, at least at a subsistance level. I know it can be done and would love to hear your folks thoughts on the matter.

[Taz Baby]

With a mag or possible mag, I would think that each one has been prepping and has something to contribute when SHTF comes. Now the way I see it and this might be hard and harsh for some to understand but I would not have anyone in my group that could not bring something to it. They would have to be useful. That means that they would have their own skill. For instance someone might not have a lot of water, food or clothes, ammo stored, but they are great at building, fixing things, have medical training, knows how to run heavy equipment. Not afraid of hard work and is easy to get along with. Doesn't have any habits that are going to get in the way of what we need to do to stay alive. Then I can compensate for what ever they didn't had or have very little of.

As far as feeding a group. People only need one good balanced meal a day, not 3 or 2. So rationing is important and if you start slow then your body will get use to it and you won't notice the change. There is a exception with the people who have to eat something because of the meds that require it. But that does not mean a 3 course meal. That just means something on their stomach.
By now everyone should know about how many people they have lined up to be in their group and still have enough time to set up who does what and what they have to bring into it.

If anyone needs anything personal just for them and only them, it is up to them to supply it. In other words I will not stock up on inhalers because I don't have asthma. Nor will I buy birth control pill because I don't need them. Get the point.

I am prepping for me and mine, you want to be in my group? Then prep for you and yours and then we as a group will combine everything and then we will agree on who buys what for the group and when SHTF comes we should have everything we need and then. We as a group can share the work load because everyone will do everything they can and be willing to learn as they go along.

Hope that makes sense

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, this is a Great post. Makes one think.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=5052123433468808&id=fc53d2f8875670b96bdbf9421592868d

[Sniper-T]

That's the ultimate catch 22 situation isn't it?

You have enough provisions stored for you and your own, but you cant defend with that small of a group. you add more people to help defend, and then you need more provisions. You add more provisions (or means to produce them) and you need more people to defend them and to work them. etc etc etc. and that is how a community/town/city/county/country is born.

[Echo2]

Our group has planned for feeding 24 people....that's men, women, and kids alike. We used the food calculators to get a generalized idea of what it takes to feed a crowd of that size.....and started storing food to fit that bill.

Luckily....one in our group is into nutritional value.....caloric daily intake.....just an all around nutritionist....and has worked in the field. She basically taken over the inventory management.

With her knowledge and help from the calculators.....we have planned for 3k calories a day for everyone. This really isn't much when you are doing a bunch of manual labor....but if you look at dividing it up with smaller women and kids.....the balance should work itself out. (at least that's what we a hoping for...no one can really know)

You really need to start looking at it on an "institutional" level....how to balance a diet with enough fiber, carbs, protein, and such. It's way over my head....but it's amazing how much stuff it equates to.If you plan on eating light.....figure about 400 lbs per person...per year.....that doesn't even touch water.

We are blessed to have gravity fed spring water coming to 2 of the buildings...and we have installed a Buffalo Pump at one of the upper buildings which can feed into two 275 gallon containers.

The BOL is a working farm....and we have at the minimum 5 years of seeds stored....and 10 yrs of some varieties.

One thing you can do now....is in the outlying areas of your AO....go around and try to establish a lot of wild edibles....lots of greens....onions....garlic....basil...etc. They require little to no attention and once established....will come back year after year.

Also....I highly recommend everyone begin researching how to cook and use every part of common forest critters....what you don't use as meat can make soup stock and rendered fat....and let's face it...calories count...you're going to want as many as you can get.

Smoking and dehydrating.....learn it now....practice while it isn't a matter if life and death......have ways to store it....mason jars and dry packs...you can use your old lids for a lot of it.

Sweeteners....fats....oils......spices....milk.... eggs....all the stuff you run to the store for now.....will be gone....better have a substitute.

And for those of us who have little kids.....massive amounts of peanut butter....:)....I probably have 20 to 30 lbs in my house now....and I don't even look at it as stores.

[bacpacker]

Echo thank you. That is exactly the variety of information I was looking for. There is so much that goes into working these details out for a small group that I really wanted to get feedback on other folks planning ideas for larger groups. And hopefully get ideas out for other groups that may not have looked at this issue very closely.

Taz, I agree with your outlook as well. My only thoughts that would differ would be this, if a known group is getting together shouldn't some group planning be included rather then each family doing all their own thing? I'm not throwing stones, just thinking out loud.

T I think you have hit on the crux of the issue totally.

[Echo2]

One of the biggest things you need to consider....is if you haven't been eating LTS for a while.....or a lot of whole grain foods....

Some of this will wreak havoc on your digestive track....and it does take a while to get acclimated.....a few weeks at best.

So if you go from a cheeseburger and chicken nugget diet to salted meat, freeze dried corn, and wheat tac.....your colon is going to hate you.

I'm just saying....:)

[bacpacker]

Store what you eat, eat what you store.

[LUNCHBOX]

So far these are good points, Echo was dead on. Fishing and hunting will have to come in play in my opinion. I know people that can't skin meat or clean a fish.....and don't want to learn (They are known as the starving ones) I along with most here are putting up seeds and working a garden or livestock now and that is great.

Wild edibles are a must...

Taz, agreed on not spending the $$$ to stock what you don't use. I do however feel that strength in numbers will matter a great deal. I think a healthy person showing up is still a benefit to the group with or without food or many skills. There will be to much of a demand to turn away the help with labor/security/everyday duties.

BP, your welcome at our table anytime.

[Taz Baby]

Bp I was saying that everyone wold have prepped for their own needs as in theirs kids,pets, their meds, etc. When SHTF comes we will all join to make our group and everyone,s preps will go to the whole group ecept what is their personal things. That way what someone wasn,t able to get would have it there for them. Like say I couldn,t afford to buy a lot of ammo for my guns because my job to the group was to buy all the basic medical stuff for the group. Like gause,salves,banaids etc. When we join the ammo would be there for everyone to use.

[bacpacker]

Taz, I wasn't knocking your OP. I just wasn't really thinking of it from the same point of view. At least haven't had to at this point.

LB, I don't disagree with the labor thought. But, until a group gets food growing, I would be hesitant to bring in very many mouths to feed. I know many hands make lighter work, but there are some folks I know who while strong and should be able to perform labor of most any type, they are so stupid I don't feel they are trainable. BTW, THANKS!

Echo, After reading back thru your post again. I had overlooked the fact that you have a nutritionist your group. That is a keeper for sure. Almost as good as a medic long term. Also the access to spring water is invaluable and will make life much easier. The working farm is what I am working toward, but who knows if time will allow that or not. And knowing how to perserve meat (smoking and dehydrating) is a key element in a working farm.

[Taz Baby]

Bp I didn,t take it that you were. But thanks for pointing it out, cause I guess I needed to explain the group part better

[bacpacker]

Having taken a little harder look at this, I have decided that I am going to try and increase my seed stock to what I feel would accomodate 10 folks for 3 years of no harvest to replenish the seed stock. I'm shooting for a well rounded diet but will go heavy on storage root crops such as taters, beets, parsnips, carrots and for winter squash, pumpkins. This will serve as a bulk food for the folks and as a possible food for hogs and such. Other types of seed would be multiple types of greens, brussell sprouts, cabbage, onions, leeks, peppers, cucumbers, beans. I also think the perineal crops like garlic, asparagus, and such would be very crucial as well.

The one crop I can't get my head around is corn. It can be a huge benifit for people as well as animal feed. I am really at a loss as to how much seed to store for it. I've never grown it as a field type crop and don't really know how much it would take per acre and what kind of harvest you could expect from a plot that size. I feel that corn, wheat, and to a lessor extent oats, barley, and soybeans will be the foundation of folks survival foods both from a personal or animal feed standpoint.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Sniper-T]

corn is a tough one. As much as I love fresh corn on the cob, and canned, and frozen... etc. Corn draws a LOT of nutrients out of the soil for very little return. Corn is generally spaced about a foot apart, and each stalk will yield one, maybe two cobs. but if you factor in the silage for livestock, then it would be a worthy crop.

The farmers around here that grow corn fertilize heavily in the fall, spring and mid summer. but unless you have the manure for that, you might 'kill' off your field in short order.

[realist]

Sniper I agree with you on corn. There is quite a lot of work for not that much return. The added plus is if you can feed it to the animals that you raise. However I have found that unless you chop it up I have seen a bunch of waste since the stocks were not eaten. Maybe someone else has had better luck. Out here most people will flood irrigate the corn since we do not have the rains that people in the east do. If you have the water it is nice but I think that there are other crops that would produce much more.

Bacpacker you are right on for the perennial plants. That is one thing that I am starting to do. If you have plants that are established and do not have to be planted each year you save a huge amount of time. This would be similar to having fruit trees.

[Sniper-T]

One thing that I did a few years ago, that did well for a couple years was guerrila gardened some sunflowers. I had a big bag for bird food, so one day when I was walking the trails, I took along a few pounds, and hand scattered seeds around in some open areas. They took well, and I had enough for the birds for a couple years. Time to do it again!

I might try the same thing with corn next year. rather than dedicate garden space for it. I will just cast some kernals into some 'extra' areas and see what happens.

[4suchatimeasthis]

I have heard of dried corn stalks being used for cheap fuel (as in build a fire, not gas up your flex-fuel auto), but never done so myself. If you have enough manure to fertilize the cornfield, then don't you have too many animals to feed? Unless im looking at the whole thing wrong. I have looked into rice patties and growing wheat, it looks easier than I expected, but they again, so do a lot of things till you try, lol....I really like the idea of growing a lot of root veggies, and things that store in a cellar well.

I have an interest in nutrition, so a few years ago I worked up a spreadsheet, figuring basic caloric needs for a 6' adult male, a women, kids, etc (kids need more calories than an average sized women, especially teen boys!) and tried to get a good balance of vitamins and minerals. Really, that saying to "eat the rainbow" is all you need to do. Plenty of orange things (sweet potatoes, carrots, squash, etc), green things (green beans, broccoli, spinach, etc), berries are super foods, and luckily you can find those in most parts of the country growing wild. You get the idea. Generally speaking, the more colorful, the more healthy. But that is referring to the color of the "flesh", not the color of the "skin", so an apple is a white food, not a red one, and is not as nutrient dense as say a blueberry, per oz. My family is from northern Wisconsin, they have a "sugar bush", meaning, they make maple syrup, and have for going on 5 generations. That stuff is worth a fortune now, I figure post shtf any natural sweetners like syrup or honey would be liquid gold.

I have been thinking about some of these other things lately too....I like the idea of rotating people initially, so that everyone learns and develops skills in all areas. But then I wonder just how practical it is to have Grandma swinging a hammer or Brother Bob foraging. You have to admit, it also makes sense to have the children and elderly do things like picking berries, foraging for wild edibles, picking weeds & rocks, etc, and having the strong men doing the more manual labor. Probably there is a balance between the two. Some people will and should be rotated around, if nothing else to relieve boredom. But some jobs will probably stay with certain people. Yes, everyone can and should learn to do all they can, but there is no good sense in ignoring that some people are just more cut out for doing certain things. For instance, in a long term shtf, a physically disabled but well educated person might just make the perfect teacher, because even post-shtf I would want my kids to learn to read, write, basic math, history, etc. A teacher will be invaluable. We have a friend who is mostly confined to a wheelchair, but he could do things like make candles, sharpen tools, reload, etc.

Everyone who truly wants to be useful, can be useful, even with limited skills. It's not rocket science to weed a vegetable garden or butcher a chicken. Anyone who is lazy is deadweight, I don't care what their skill is. The Good Book has it right, "if a man will not work, neither shall he eat". Not if he "can't" work, but if he won't.

Huh...some rabbit trail I got there, lol.

[realist]

I've been thinking about this some more and there are a lot of people who have a hard time cooking just for themselves rather than a large group. If you have to potential for a large group I suggest making some large pots of food for practice during a party to test out your abilities. Or you could cook up a couple pots of food and then can them. It would be bad enough to be in a stressful situation, it would be even worse to ruin dinner and have to eat blackened whatever. I routinely cook for large groups and no matter what you will always have complainers, my food is not cooked enough, my food is cooked too much. I could care less about them so long as the food is properly cooked then that is my goal. I figure that if we have a large influx I can handle up to 20 at my place no problem so long as there is enough food to go around. I am prepared for my family and then some but not for a group of 20, this aint no soup kitchen. BTW do you have large pots and pans to cook in? Do you have a large stove such as a three burner outdoor stove? Just some things to think about.

[Echo2]

I have a few large stainless steel cook pots from the Navy....about 6 gallon in size. Also have many large stock pots of the 3 to 3.5 gallon size. A few very large dutch ovens....some very large frying pans....and am now in search of a nice wok.....20" minimum.

Not to mention our pressure canners/ cookers....and water bath canners....the group collectively has more than a couple...:).....to the tune of 20 to 30.....I have collected enough canners at yard sales....that I store more than a few at the BOL.

Something I am lacking in is serving ladles and spoons....guess I'll start hitting goodwill for those.

Need to plan on wood also....the gas will run out.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8007/7653660706_bd6dd124f0.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7129/7875039750_b59c6fd760_z.jpg

[bacpacker]

I agree that corn is a heavy feeder. and a lot of the newer varities do only have 1 or 2 ears per stalk. However some of the older types such as hickory cane will produce more than that. I have also been trying some other older types that I got from baker creek seeds, with varying results. I hope to hit on a good one some day.
For fertilize I intend to use chicken crap as it is very high in nitrogen. Most of what I have fed since spring is just food scraps. When I cleaned out the coop I got almost enough to fertilize my whole corn patch for next year. With a larger group - more chickens = more fertilize = more crops.
I truly think I can sustain a decent corn crop to at least feed my animals. Crop rotation is the key. Also follow up corn the next year with either peas or beans to fix the nitrogen back.
And then you get back to the OLD Tennesse staple, corn liquor. That will have to be a good barter item after a while. :)

[4suchatimeasthis]

Good call on crop rotation! We are doing pasture rotation now, to make the most of our grazing areas. This drought & early high temps really burns the grass up, and the horses would kill it if we didn't have them on a rotation schedule.

[ladyhk13]

BP just a sidenote on the chicken manure...we found out down here that one of the downsides of it that Japanese Beetles and Junebugs like to lay their eggs in it, hence increasing the population of them. This is what we have been told down here but since they are cattle people they don't care much about what it does to fruit/veggies...it doesn't affect them.

[GunnerMax]

I nominate this thread as "thread of the year"

[bacpacker]

Thank you Gunner, but there are lots of better threads than this one. It's just a subject that has the wheels spinning in my head ( and slingin a bunch of muddy water ).

[Onestep]

We have a slowly forming group. Not family members but like minded individuals within a 5-6 mile radius of our place.
Here is something I have been doing this summer , getting them started on their gardens.
Ours has been going for a few years now and we have everything pretty much dialed in so it was in a maintain stage.
Helping them will help us if we have a bad crop and vise versa.

[GunnerMax]

Bacpacker, I know, but this post gives us the insight of the steak and taters of prepping---Eating. Quality over quantity. The preperations of our members is amazing, and stunning. Great job, even in this economy

[Echo2]

quality and quantity is important....eating great for a month vs good for 3 months...I'll go for good for 3.

[bacpacker]

That's why I want to grow my food. You get high quality and you can control quantity to some degree. That'll last forever. Just gotta keep it up and maintained.

[GunnerMax]

I meant quality over quantity of the posts, not food, sry I didn't make that clear. :)

[Stormfeather]

Lots of great info here, and thanks to all who contributed to it. Definitely makes one think and look at possibilities of things that may not have came to mind. Myself, I tried to garden, failed miserably this year. Think the weather and lack of rain had alot to do with it. But I keep purchasing seeds for the future. If I cant use them, then hopefully someone more experienced than myself can. Thats where the MAG aspect comes in. Combining those skills and helping out in areas that others are weak in.