Dangerous Game

[Buddychrist]

After talking to quite a few members and all of them speaking highly of the attitude of this forum being honest and realistic I have decided to share my situation.

I live right next door to a poorly operated wildlife sanctuary. They currently have Lions, Tigers, Panthers, Cougars, Leopards, Jaguars, and many more dangerous big cats and all of them are in 4x4 and hog fence enclosures.

On quite a few of the tours I have made of their home I have seen how the owners mock the cats even when they are hissing, showing their teeth, defensive stance and the owners just continue to get closer and closer to the cage. Now I am no Animal Biologist but when I big cat is clearly showing signs of aggression and you look it in the eyes and walk closer like its nothing isn't that like thumping the glass to a fish tank?

So to break it down.
1. Big cats
2. Poorly treated
3. Taunted aggression
4. No fear or respect of humans
5. Right next door
6. Poorly built cages

I am looking for any ideas for deterrents, weapons both handguns for lightweight personal open carry and larger rifles, mace, taser, flamethrowers, literally anything under the sun that you would think can better my chances of survival considering I am the nearest one with livestock.

My current firearm situation
Smith and Wesson 5906 9mm para
Savage 111 .270 bolt action
Remington 870 express magnum 12Ga
Marlin 30-30 lever action
Misc smaller guns .22, 20 gauge, etc...
Basically I do not feel that I have the right weapon for the job.

Current ideas already being considered.
Glock 20 10mm W/Incendiary Tracers
AK 7.62 with foldable stock
Saiga 12 with slide fire and 20rd drum
454 Casull revolver
Stag Arms 6.8 SPC
Beowulf .50

Now I do not have any intention to move since I don't have the back anymore to build half of what I own today. I'm just looking for the best options to protect my family and myself.

Thanks again guys!

[ladyhk13]

Number one: Call whatever authorities that govern having those kinds of animals. Obvioulsy they have a permit to have them and also to be a zoo of sorts in order to offer tours. This type of behavior can be considered dangerous to the "patrons" that are visiting, if their cages are substandard then they are a danger to the neighbors, if they are intentionally provoking the animals to make them "mean" this may be animal cruelty? You may be able to get them shut down and the animals moved to a safer and more loving place. That would be my first thing.
Next I would make sure you have some tall fences. I would think that any of the weapons you already have would do the job if you came face to face with one of the animals on your property. I would concentrate my efforts on getting the place shut down and working with others in your area to join you.

[robsdak]

wow, under gunned? i see no reason why the .270 , .30-.30 or the 12ga wouldn't do the trick. again i don't know the situation, distance or how proficient you are with weapons listed (no offense meant ). as far as the .454 and .50 go, too big in my opinion, too long to recover from the recoil to make a quick second shot. me, i would rather shoot the animal several times, than count on 1 shot doing the job.

as far as a pistol round, look into a .45. auto.

[Taz Baby]

First off I would call animal control, and wildlife and since you said earlier that they are legal, How do you know that? Are you sure they have all their legal papers to have these animals? I would let the authorities know that you have concerns for your safety and your families safety because of they way the cages are built. Also let them know that you have seen them taunt the animals. The animals that I have seen in zoo's do not look pissed off or mean or show aggression when people get close to look at them. Do the animals look health? Are the cages clean and do they have water? Sounds like maybe the animals are hungry or just hate those people for a reason. If a animal is being mistreated by someone they learn to hate them. Maybe that is why they are hissing at the people. I would defiantly have someone go check on the animals. Maybe you can make them have to shut down and move the animals. You are right about worrying that the animals are dangerous if they get out. If they are being mistreated by humans then they are going to hate all people and since you are close your place will be the first place they go. Also if you do have to shoot one of them will you get into trouble by doing that? Since they are protected animals?

[Buddychrist]

Number one: Call whatever authorities that govern having those kinds of animals. Obvioulsy they have a permit to have them and also to be a zoo of sorts in order to offer tours. This type of behavior can be considered dangerous to the "patrons" that are visiting, if their cages are substandard then they are a danger to the neighbors, if they are intentionally provoking the animals to make them "mean" this may be animal cruelty? You may be able to get them shut down and the animals moved to a safer and more loving place. That would be my first thing.
Next I would make sure you have some tall fences. I would think that any of the weapons you already have would do the job if you came face to face with one of the animals on your property. I would concentrate my efforts on getting the place shut down and working with others in your area to join you.

I have talked to FWC and they say they are completely up to code and that because the animals are "Injured" which from what I have seen is arthritis and they are healthy and fine, that the cages meet regulation.

As for the animal cruelty the officer got very straight forward on me and basically that because we are talking about a multi millionaire here that it is going to be nearly impossible to prove.

I would like to have taller fences but 11 acres of land is alot of fencing and we are talking just a little under a mile of fence that I have already placed farm fence with the o'l slap down poles so its about 4.5ft high, not tall enough but they at least have to hop something!


wow, under gunned? i see no reason why the .270 , .30-.30 or the 12ga wouldn't do the trick. again i don't know the situation, distance or how proficient you are with weapons listed (no offense meant ). as far as the .454 and .50 go, too big in my opinion, too long to recover from the recoil to make a quick second shot. me, i would rather shoot the animal several times, than count on 1 shot doing the job.

as far as a pistol round, look into a .45. auto.

The distance is the biggest problem since I am looking between 50-75 yards depending on my location and I know that a big cat can scale that amount of ground very quickly. That's why I consider myself under gunned because none of my guns are semi auto except for my pistol and my .22's.

As for proficiency I was taught how to shoot first by my grandfather (WWII army medic with 2 bronze stars) then my father (Former Marine Honor Guard at Arlington) and most of my tactical training came from my brother (Marine with two tours one in Iraq and the other in Afghanistan).

I consider myself fairly proficient at least enough to keep up with my military buddies at the range. But I am always open to learn more!

[Buddychrist]

Also if you do have to shoot one of them will you get into trouble by doing that? Since they are protected animals?

I covered the other parts just after you made the comment but this one really stood out to me. Even though they are protected animals under my state florida law says that you have the right to use lethal force to kill any animal to prevent it from doing damage to you or your property. So even if it is a protected animal if I feel endangered I have the right to use lethal force. Very similar to the castle law and stand your ground but for animals.

Also I found the link I was looking for on the private sanctuary's. I knew it was on my favorites somewhere!

http://bigcatrescue.org/abuse-issues/issues/why-regulations-dont-work

This is BCR a very legitimate cat rescue operation talking about private ownership regulations and why private ownership should be banned all together.

[ladyhk13]

I fully understand about fencing...we are about ready to do 241 acres. I know your pain - ours must be higher though. The only other thing I can suggest is barbed wire across the top? That might not be so expensive and if the animals have health issues and arthritis they may have a harder time jumping it and if they see that barrier they may decide to go a different route all together.

[Buddychrist]

I fully understand about fencing...we are about ready to do 241 acres. I know your pain - ours must be higher though. The only other thing I can suggest is barbed wire across the top? That might not be so expensive and if the animals have health issues and arthritis they may have a harder time jumping it and if they see that barrier they may decide to go a different route all together.

I reckon I could go and do coiled razor wire across the top since its very simple to put into place and extremely effective, I already have a single barbed wire taunt almost to the top of the post but I think that coiled razor wire would do the trick! Then everyone would think I am like a miniature Fort Knox just from my fence and no way to see anything through the woods around my land.

[ladyhk13]

I reckon I could go and do coiled razor wire across the top since its very simple to put into place and extremely effective, I already have a single barbed wire taunt almost to the top of the post but I think that coiled razor wire would do the trick! Then everyone would think I am like a miniature Fort Knox just from my fence and no way to see anything through the woods around my land.

That's the stuff I was thinking of but couldn't think of the name. Like the stuff they put around prisons.

[Buddychrist]

That's the stuff I was thinking of but couldn't think of the name. Like the stuff they put around prisons.

Exactly!!!

Even doing a double set which would raise my fence by another 3-4 feet is fairly cheap and extremely effective!

[robsdak]

well as others have said, fencing is a good thing! reason i didn't go there or with FWC angle, was i had figured you did that already.

i didn't realize this was my 1st post, i guess i "lurk" a lot.

the calibers you have are more than capable of killing them. just buy semi-auto of what you already have? you could build a "tactical shotgun" pump or auto, Winchester 1300-1400, Speedfeed 3 stock,extended mag? my only concern, was how quickly a follow up shot could be handled. i am a good sized boy and the .454 is a lot of recoil.

i understand learning more, never hurts, knowledge is the key to everything. "Concertina Wire" is what you are talking about.

[Onestep]

You may want to consider an electric wire on the top as well. It "may" be cheaper than the razer wire.
I would load the shotgun with 00 buck for the first 2 or 3 of rounds and back it up with slugs. If one were to attack, in the heat of the moment, 00 will allow for a broader cover area.
The 9mm should be fine as your sidearm.

[4suchatimeasthis]

^^^good thinking, Onestep, I'd not have thought of 00 buck then slugs. Makes sense.

[Twitchy]

what part of florida are you in?

[Buddychrist]

Gainesville!

Go Gators! Lol

[ak474u]

I read an article in a gun magazine years ago, about a guy who fished on Kodiak island in Alaska, he carried a .458 Win while fishing because bears figured out they could take your fish easier than getting it themselves... He recommended a test to determine whether a long gun was adequate, and I used this thinking on my back country hiking gun. Dangerous game can cover long distances very quickly, so he wrote that a good idea was to take a paper plate, and nail it to a post at 30 yards IIRC, and shoot it 3 times in 3-4 seconds. This is obviously not perfect, because an animal may change course, and would be closing in, but he said if you couldn't do that, it wasn't a fast enough gun, and the caliber might need to be raised to a dangerous game type of round. The good news about a big cat is, they're not as dense as a bear, the bad news is, they're twice as fast, so if you can get accurate aimed fire off from a 12ga, or lever gun, if it hits vitals, it'll probably kill the cat. I'd also consider clearing underbrush near the entrances of your home if any, and keeping any wild grasses mowed down flat so you have all the warning possible that a cat is stalking you, I'd hate to walk outside in my bunny slippers to get the paper and get eaten by the cheetah waiting in the underbrush next to the door. Also, for pistols I think you said 9mm, which ought to stop a big cat, I'd seriously consider ditching fmj and keeping the good hp stuff loaded up, I'd hate to land all my hits with a pistol and have the cat die of old age with a full stomach. I'd maybe also consider building a cage, maybe chain link or something near the area you use the most for you to take refuge in should you have to run away. Obviously climbing a tree won't work with big cats. The other alternative would be to secure your heavily used space inside the property with a game fence that is electrified with a 10 miles of fence charger top and bottom, so you don't have to watch your back constantly.


Since moneybags wants to keep big cats, you may want to ask him to build a better fence on his side of the property. If the fence is on the property line, lots of places consider it a jointly-owned fence, and maybe if he wants to be a good neighbor, he can foot part of the bill.

[mitunnelrat]

I say avoid the shotgun. Accuracy, penetration, and controlled expansion are the name of the game in effectively dropping big game. If you must use a shotgun, at least avoid using buckshot. Its effective range is well under 75 yards, and it must still be aimed. Better to have a slug if you must use a shotgun, at least it has better range and is more accurate.

A rifle is a better choice though, and a carbine version can often be much lighter than a shotgun, meaning its more likely to be grabbed. 30-06 is a common choice against 1,000 pound brown bear in Alaska, so I'd think it'd be ok for most anything smaller, like a cat. Benelli has the RI, as an example, which may fit the bill.

Of course, a .40 caliber or larger long arm may be considered more effective, and a .44 revolver with a 6 inch barrel is what I'd recommend as a minimum pistol choice (the Desert Eagle .454 and .50AE's being bigger and as manageable, if not more so than the .44). Accuracy and penetration, remember. Since 9mm is the min. recommended against a human threat in self defense I personally wouldn't be comfortable depending on it to shut down the CNS of a big cat. Humans are slower, smaller and and cannot immediately inflict the same level of damage as a cat. I think a 6" revolver is also going to be as (or more) accurate than many semi-auto 9mm's.

Aside from the arguments I've already presented I have one more reason I've selected 30-06 and .44 over some larger calibers.
They're more common calibers, so, in theory, the ammunition is easier to find and resupply.

As for perimter defense, I'd recommend a living fenceline of a thorny, food bearing variety that you grow wider than a cat is capable of jumping. Its more discreet, will feed you, and it can be the first defense in a layered system if you still want concertina, I'd just recommend keeping the wire fence stored until after shtf. It'll draw a lot of attention. Invariably some of it being negative.

[4suchatimeasthis]

If it was me, I'd put some time into training a good dog. There are several breeds that were developed to help hunt big cats, the Rhodesian Ridgeback being one of them. I know first hand that they are wonderful dogs, good family pets, fearless, smart...I seriously considered buying one several years ago, and met with a breeder in PA several times, even helped out at her kennel a little. They are just fantastic animals!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaI4eibtHHM

[Buddychrist]

If it was me, I'd put some time into training a good dog. There are several breeds that were developed to help hunt big cats, the Rhodesian Ridgeback being one of them. I know first hand that they are wonderful dogs, good family pets, fearless, smart...I seriously considered buying one several years ago, and met with a breeder in PA several times, even helped out at her kennel a little. They are just fantastic animals!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaI4eibtHHM

I have two puppies that I am going to have law enforcement trained by a retired LEO. One is a mastiff and the other is a Rottweiler! Good dogs and the right attitude to be trainable and also they are the same age.

[Sniper-T]

I agree with most of the comments here... first of all you should talk to your neighbour, at least exhaust the easiest solution before you take it further

If he is unwilling to listen or act upon your concerns, then you need to escalate your level of ready.

Cats are amazing creatures, their ability to jump/climb, crawl and dig is matched by none. It would take a very serious fence indeed to keep a cat out/in if it REALLY wanted to leave/enter. A cat can wiggle through, under or around things that you wouldn't think possible. I've watched a housecat do a standing 6' vertical jump to land on top of my fridge. I've tracked a cougar and seen where it did a standing jump across a 15' wide creek... repeatedly!

Personally, I think you would be better off putting a second fence up, about 6' inside of your first one. Most animals are messed up by a second fence, and you can use that area as a dog run. A couple of dogs would be a better deterrent than a coil of razor wire (IMO). A sngle strand of electric would probably be helpful, but not the end all be all either.

Try to ensure that you have nothing around your place that would draw them in, animals, kids, etc, while possibly providing a better alternative somewhere else. or at least easier to get in than yours.

As for weapons, I generally take a .30.30 when I hunt predators (bears, wolves, cats), as well as a 12Ga loaded with buck. I also carry a 7.62X25. If it is far enough away to warrant a rifle, I have a rifle, if it is in close, then the 12 Ga. If I need the handgun... well it's not going to be fun at that point!

I think your best bet is to remove the situation. get some video of the animals in their cages, being tormented, being mistreated. Just don't do it from a place nor in a way that will implicate you. Then 'leak' the videos. most papers are bleeding heart liberal based. show them the cruelty. send them to an animal rights group. Youtube. put the pressure on him, and maybe they'll be removed from the equation.

Good luck

[4suchatimeasthis]

I think your best bet is to remove the situation. get some video of the animals in their cages, being tormented, being mistreated. Just don't do it from a place nor in a way that will implicate you. Then 'leak' the videos. most papers are bleeding heart liberal based. show them the cruelty. send them to an animal rights group. Youtube. put the pressure on him, and maybe they'll be removed from the equation.


Agreed. I'm generally not a big fan of PETA, but in a case like this, sending them a video just might solve your problem.

[Buddychrist]

I've done the best I can by talking to them and even FWC and basically they are millionaires and catching them is gonna be a real pain to do. But I will do some surveillance over the next few months and see what I can come up with.

[Dropy]

I recommend electrical fencing. just a wire or 2 near the top will deter most animals. And it can be run off a solar cell. This method is MUCH easier and CHEAPER than putting up a new tall fence, and can even be easier than putting up barbed wire.

As for a weapon, i would think .308, maybe an AR10, your 12 gauge is fine, .45auto pistol with good defensive ammo.

[Buddychrist]

I recommend electrical fencing. just a wire or 2 near the top will deter most animals. And it can be run off a solar cell. This method is MUCH easier and CHEAPER than putting up a new tall fence, and can even be easier than putting up barbed wire.

As for a weapon, i would think .308, maybe an AR10, your 12 gauge is fine, .45auto pistol with good defensive ammo.

I was looking at a .308 sig sauer AR-10 today but Jesus I'm not rich! It's $1,987 but it also has the Eo-tech sight and three spare mags and a custom adjustable stock with adjustable cheek rest. What A BEAST!!!!

[Sniper-T]

...but Jesus I'm not rich! T!!!!

Sell some cat hides?

[Buddychrist]

Sell some cat hides?

I was thinking about making lion capes for myself for the winter! Walking around town like a complete boss!

[Taz Baby]

Don't forget to wear the fake gold jewelry, Mr T would like that.

[Sniper-T]

Pity the Millionaire fool!

[Taz Baby]

Just be careful not to piss him off. His money will bury you under the jail for the rest of your life.