Wood burning for heat question

[deanathpc]

Hello folks. I have a question regarding heating with wood. This would be supplemental as we use heating oil now. Called today for cash price delivery and it is up to $3.799 a gallon. 150 gallons min for delivery. It's killing us. Bad credit so budget plan isn't an option.

So... I'm trying to find an add on wood burning furnace. My question is this. Do I have to put in another chimney? Or can it be tied into the current one which the oil burner is using? I'd like the oil burner as a backup for when we aren't home etc. I think I know the answer but curious if anyone here knows for sure. Or even suggestions for me.

Now keep in mind this is a very old farm house so its large and drafty. Can't afford to put siding in place along with insulation as the mortgage payments are killing me along with heating costs. Moving isn't much of an option just yet. And bad credit won't allow purchasing of a cheaper place.

I've read of some horror stories with home owners insurance and wood burning too so I'm reluctant to even mention the idea of it to them in fear of losing insurance as a result.

Whew long winded... LOL. Sorry... Just trying to paint the picture here....

Dean

[Sniper-T]

legalities will vary, state to state, So you'll have to give us a hint where you are. Generally speaking though... one unit - one chimney. 2 units - 2 chimneys

[ANEURYSM]

Fuel oil furnace chimine's have a barametric plate in it and are heavy walled but not thick enough to use as a wood chimne.

I have another question for you that might help with fuel oil consumtion.

When was the last time the gun and pot were cleaned and a new gun nozzle installed?

These should be done yearly.

Fuel oil under pressure is abrasive. The gun nozzle's are metered to a certain flow. Alot of people dont like the 30$ nozzle price and skip doing it till the thing is guzzling fuel not ignighting right or just plain quits.
I have personaly seen a 5 year old nozzle cut from .75gph to 5gph. Yep a shit load of fuel being burnt not needed.

Not saying it is a fix but if she hasnt been servaced in a while it will help with cost in fuel over a winter.

[deanathpc]

I'm in new York.

We have been in the house about 4 years now. It hasn't been serviced. I go through about 150 gallons in a month with the thermostat set to 64 lowest and highest of 66.

[Sniper-T]

seems awfully high to me... might want to check out Aneurisms idea. Do you have access to free wood? cause it isn't cheap either. especially if you factor in your time.

You might be able to jury-rig a chimney out through a wall or a window, but I'm sure it wouldn't be up to code. For what a stove/pipe etc would cost you, you might be better served in buying a few rolls of TyVek an some caulking

[deanathpc]

Yeah I think its time to get it looked at.

I'm all about doing it myself but no clue on these and I don't want to screw it up.

I'd like to hear from other oil users to see if my usage is in the ball park or not. Previous owners didn't use this much I don't think but not sure.

I have wood siding on it now so taking that off and doing house wrap wouldn't be fun. Not at all but I know it needs doing. Just like repainting the house. Paint isn't cheap either.

[KLF]

My parents house is an old farmhouse built in the late 40's or 50's I think. In the 60's a dual purpose furnace was fitted that can use both wood and oil (and central heating with water radiators). Only one type of fuel at a time and some maintenance/cleaning was required when fuel was switched. For that furnace there is only one chimney, house itself has had at least three chimneys in the past as there were several fireplaces around the house.

Roughly ten years ago they made conversion to use only wood pellets in the furnace. Cheaper than oil and less physical work than regular wood. With regular wood you'd need to fill two-three times every day to keep house warm, with pellets it was once a week or more depending on how much heat is needed.

When I lived there, ~15 years ago, it was pretty much always me who carried the wood and kept fire going. Soon after I moved out they changed to oil and then pellets later. Back then same furnace also provided hot water, so no warm shower in the mornings... :D

[ladyhk13]

There is a thing called a Pellet heater. You have to buy pellets for it but I know my sister would love to buy one for her old farm house. The unit is outside so I don't think you have to have a chimney....check on that though.

[deanathpc]

Yeah I've looked into those. Pellets aren't cheap.

At least with wood burning I can get the wood off of my land if need be.

This whole idea is based on self sufficiency also. Just a lot of work.

[4suchatimeasthis]

Lots of good advice so far, but as I see it, as long as you have a very large and drafty house, poorly insulated, you are going to be burning a helluva lotta wood or gas, and getting a poor return on it. No way around it. I would try to:

1- Limit the rooms/areas being heated as much as possible.

2- Do the best you can to insulate, even if it's just putting packing bubbles over windows on the inside (spray window with water, press the bubbles to the glass, they will stick to it, allow light, and insulate the glass), or cardboard, flattened cardboard boxes are decent, believe it or not, for walls, floors, windows.... pack bubble wrap in cracks, use towels, blankets, rugs (esp under doors) to insulate the rooms you do heat. Heat is leaving your house like water out of a strainer, so no amount of gas or wood will keep it warm, until you close up the holes. I learned this the hard way, while remodeling a house we had an inch gap between the walls and floor (ex pulled all the floor trim to redo the floors, before he moved out, lol) let so much of a breeze in that my curtains moved. Oye, a disaster. But, you can fix it, and it doesn't have to be pretty. Duct tape and cardboard boxes or bubble wrap are freaking amazing insulation, they are cheap and will get you through the winter. Rugs (rolled up in front of doors), blankets (hanging in doorways to keep the heat consolidated in certain rooms), plastic and/or cardboard in windows...these will help. Don't waste heat in rooms with high ceilings, I learned that with cathedral ceilings. What a joke!

3- In a pinch I have seen people use barrel kits for indoor wood stoves. Don't attempt to rig up a wood chimney with your gas furnace. Well, if you do, make sure you take out a super fantastic life insurance policy first. There are a lot of house related things you can cut corners on, and it's really fine. Your chimney/heating system isn't one of them. Tell ya what, whne you end up with a chimney fire, your house will be REALLY hot, for a few hours at least. Then it will be a pile of ashes, and hopefully you and yours got out in time. Then again, my husband, father and three uncles are or have been fire fighters, so maybe I have heard about too many chimney/house fires. Mind you, I grew up in northern Wisconsin in a log cabin with a cement floor and no indoor plumbing, and yes, we had a wood burning stove. But small wood burning stoves are not a bad deal for heating just a few open rooms, say a kitchen/living room that are open to each other.

Sadly, you are going to be cold, and broke, lol. It sucks, but that's reality. Warm wool socks, wear layers, area rugs, and hot drinks may help. As long as you can keep things warm enough to keep your pipes from freezing....

[deanathpc]

Good advice. And many I have thought of or done.

I've heard about using bubble wrap. My problem with that is that the seals on the Windows are shot. So I use plastic to cover them up which eliminates drafts. Helps a lot.

Now bubble wrap for hole plugging I never would have thought of. Thanks for that one. Now to find all of my bubble wrap. Will have to check the kids rooms as they take em and pop em all the time! LOL

I have thought about insulating the basement ceiling to stop the drafts too. Just wasn't sure if I wanted to do that as it keeps the floors warmer without it. But old style wood floors so they aren't very draft proof. The basement walls are the old stone type so I know its drafty. That's my biggest problem. Even thought about hanging plastic sheets up just as a barrier on the basement ceiling for a draft stopper. Not sure if that will be cheaper than insulation or foam board though. I will have to price things out.

Thanks again for all of the tips and tricks. Time to price things out.

Dean

[2die4]

I'm in upstate New York. I know your pains about stupid heating oil. Previous post already hit on making sure your furnace is serviced. We had ours done and was amazed at the better performance.



You could always put the wood burning stove in. You are definitely going to have to go to the county office to get a license (fee) to cut another hole in your roof for the wood burning chimney. I believe someone is going to have to come out to inspect it as well.

Forgot to add, insulating foam in a can works well around windows and other small drafty cracks. You always have the option of shaving the goop down when it dries and painting over it.

[deanathpc]

Thank you! I have just got off the phone with turnbull. They will be out a week from Monday to look at it. $90 diagnostic plus what ever it may need. I hope they find something but not too much. LOL guess I'm hoping for improvements in the unit for cheap! LOL

Even turnbull went Ouch when I told them how much I go through. Thank you for your reply and confirmation. I'm going to kick myself I'm sure if it is a simple fix. And if it saves me a ton of money just because of the money I've lost over the years.

Dean

[apssbc]

First off your doing good by having it checked and serviced. Glad that your folowing reccomendations, and doing that. Thats a ton of oil to be going through.

I dont know the rules in NY but in Michigan they are pretty laxed and I usually dont pull a permit. Currently I heat with my gas furnace, my house was built in 1954 and has the original behometh gas furnace. I had that inspected and they said it was in great shape but is old and innefficient. To supplement my gas I run my old open fireplace as often as possible. If you know anything about these they heat a living room well but thats it. They also burn a lot of wood. There are positives like the ambiance of having the fire, being able to cook with it, boil water ect. There are alot of negatives also.

If your looking to not bug out too far come shtf I would reccomend an actual wood stove. They are actually pretty easy to install, I just did one in my garage by my self. . These are very efficient, burn little wood and can be loaded to burn all night. Make sure if you buy one to get one with a catalytic converter. when the fire is up to temp you shut the converter down and can usually burn for 6-10 hours on a load. Also get on that has a flat top so you could cook on it if necessary. In total your looking at 1-4 thousand depending on the stove brand new. You can find them on cragislist up to about $1000. Also make sure you get double or triple wall pipe. Start up is expensive but when your done using gas, or oil its pays itself off. My gas bill went from $120-130/ month before I used the fire place all the time. With it Im down to about $70. When my parents had actual wood burners we did not have a heat bill. Gas would cost us about $20-30/month to use the ovens, stove, and hot water.

Pellet stoves require petllets and those will be in short supply come shtf. Outdoor boilers are another nice option but they have major drawbacks. With a boiler you can load it once every 24 hours. They require power though which aso may be in short supply come shtf. Also you always have to keep them running and must have a forced air furnace to keep everything running. You can run it like a boiler if you have radiant heat seeing as they make adaptors for everything. My buddy has on and it heats his barn, garage, and house. He has the option to add dryer, hot water, sauna, oven, and hot tub attachments. He bought the biggest one and can run all those at the same time. The boilers have major drawbacks come shtf but before it they are a very nice option.

I have opted out of a fireplace insert for mine or a wood stove because Im not staying here forever. Plus with an insert I loose the option of cooking with the fire. In all there are alot of options for heating. I favor wood in any place I will live because its convienient and I have a free lifetime supply of wood to work with. Its worth it in the long run as you will save money as long as you can get wood. ITs good work too. I only split by hand because I enjoy it, thus keeping me in shape.

[deanathpc]

Well no one has ever said to me that its a ton of oil used so I never even thought about it.

Wish I knew that years ago so I could have saved myself money....

[2die4]

Btw where are you in NY?

[KLF]

Yeah I've looked into those. Pellets aren't cheap.

At least with wood burning I can get the wood off of my land if need be.

This whole idea is based on self sufficiency also. Just a lot of work.

I know :) Main reason for my parents using pellets is that they are getting old and making/carrying firewood started to be too much a burden. After all the amount of firewood needed for a winter was ridiculous. Storage space in the basement is bigger than my first apartment in the city and about size of my current living room... And it was pretty much empty every spring. So for them it's more a convenience issue vs. firewood and cost. vs oil.

Back to the more important thing, your house. How big is it, how many floors/rooms and how is the heat distribution currently made? Is it possible to build heavier structure ie. fireplace with bricks?

A heat storing fireplace is quite common here, both in new houses (if a fireplace is built at all) as well retrofitted to reduce heating costs.
http://puutuli.com/Cebud/CMA%201.jpg
Basically a huge pile of bricks and cement, heat isn't expelled directly instead it makes a round inside. Heat it once and it will keep surroundings warm for a day. During summer bigger circulation can be blocked (arrows on the picture) so you can burn wood without storing too much heat, like a regular fireplace.
Here's a link to a site (http://translate.google.fi/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpuutuli.com%2FVARAAVA%2520TAKKA%252 0JA%2520SAVUPIIPU%2520SARJA.html) selling a DIY kit of the main pieces for such a fireplace.

My parents (farm)house is huge (main floor 13 rooms of which 10 are heated) and before central heating was installed it had three separate fireplaces:
Kitchen and main bedroom share a brick wall that acts as a chimney and back wall to a baking oven. In addition to cooking heating it would store heat in the wall itself, keeping 4 rooms nearby warm. Here's pictures of one being made (http://translate.google.fi/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uuninmuuraaja.fi%2Findex.php%3F id%3D12%23http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uuninmuuraaja.fi%2Fimag es%2Fgalleria%2Fleivinuuni%2F01.jpg).

On the other side of the house is a tiled stove (http://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uuninmuuraaja.fi%2Findex.php%3F id%3D13%23http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uuninmuuraaja.fi%2Fimag es%2Fgalleria%2Fkakluuni%2F01.jpg), similar in construction but looks different. It is basically built on the side of the chimney, facing a grand dining room and the backside has two small bedrooms.

There was a third oven/stove but it was removed/replaced with the furnace in the basement long before I was born.

Both of those remaining fireplaces are decomissioned now, the baking oven probably would work but the chimney hasn't seen use for 20 years or more. I do remember my late grandma using it in the 80's though :)

Unfortunately english isn't my native and as this isn't my area of expertise either so I know there are things literally lost in translation. Even google translator couldn't translate everything as I wanted. I wish I could give you some ideas, though not as simple as installing a steel stove but in the long run perhaps more efficient.

[deanathpc]

Western. Between buffalo and Rochester

[2die4]

Western. Between buffalo and Rochester

I am in the Catskills. Quite a drive. I travel through your neck of the woods on occasion when my presence is required at Ft. Drum. Would love to do a meet and greet even if its only for few mins.

[deanathpc]

Still a stretch though. But it might be something we can work on.

[Evolver]

Thank you! I have just got off the phone with turnbull. They will be out a week from Monday to look at it. $90 diagnostic plus what ever it may need. I hope they find something but not too much. LOL guess I'm hoping for improvements in the unit for cheap! LOL

Even turnbull went Ouch when I told them how much I go through. Thank you for your reply and confirmation. I'm going to kick myself I'm sure if it is a simple fix. And if it saves me a ton of money just because of the money I've lost over the years.

Dean

Looking forward to the update after the heater gets looked at. You've had a allot of good ideas and feed back on this thread that not only benefited you but anyone that reads this.:) I to hope for a easy fix.

Using clear plastic over your windows and caulking in all the crack in any home is a great way to save on fuel costs. I've built simple frames in the past for windows out of molding that the plastic is stapled to the inside of the frame fist then the frame screwed in to the wall around the window. You can even paint the frame so it looks likes your windows are trimmed out. The reason for the frame is so it can be easily removed and or stored for ether window cleaning or for when spring arrives and you want the fresh air.
Another thing that you can now due is blow in your own insinuation in the attic threw your gabble vents or attic access. I saw that at Home Depot you can now rent insulation blowers. Its easier and a cheaper than roll batting.

[deanathpc]

I will give an update once I know more.

The plastic is currently held in place by the included double sided tape. That is a pain in the arse. Hate doing it but when it holds it is great. I like your framing idea!! I'm going to look into that one. A little extra work but better in the long run I thing. Kind of like a storm window but much better. LOL

[KLF]

I will give an update once I know more.

The plastic is currently held in place by the included double sided tape. That is a pain in the arse. Hate doing it but when it holds it is great. I like your framing idea!! I'm going to look into that one. A little extra work but better in the long run I thing. Kind of like a storm window but much better. LOL

My parents place have double windows with actual hinges. During summertime they are lifted off and carried to the attic. A simple gasket between wall and frame will help even more.

Edit:
I posted a great wall of text last night (took three hours to write it) but since it has some links/images it apparently is waiting for moderator appoval. And if it appears twice... well, I might have doubleposted it too :D

[deanathpc]

I remember those windows!! I'm dating myself though...

[realist]

I had an oil stove and it cost me a fortune. I switched to a wood stove and loved it. When I moved to where we are now we switched to using propane to heat, and it was killing us too. So I started looking around and settled on a pellet stove so it would be easier on my wife. The problem with the pellet stove is that it takes electricity. If I truly want heat then it will be when the power is out and that negates the pellet stove. I wished I had gone with a simple wood stove. That is something that I am looking at in the future. However all the stoves in our state require a fan to make them more efficient. The one that I want will be able to run both ways...

[deanathpc]

That is my whole point here also. Primary heat source but a backup in case SHTF.

When I win the lottery I'll buy my own tropical island. Then heating won't be an issue! LOL

[deanathpc]

Well folks I have an update.

Dirty... He has his vacuum out now. That's for starters. He will be changing out the jets and everything too. I was amazed at the crap that was inside everywhere.

[Sniper-T]

That's a good sign. might just well be a few bucks well spent!!

[deanathpc]

I think so. Filters are now changed, jet replaced, cleaned. Now as long as I keep up with it every year I should be good. Knock on wood!

[Sniper-T]

did he show you how to do it all? be nice to eliminate him if possible...

[deanathpc]

Actually he went through it. I may not remember it all though! LOL