Post SHTF communication alternatives

[izzyscout21]

so other than radio's (hams, CB's, etc) what other forms of comms can you guys think of to support us post SHTF. I was giving this some thought the other day and again yesterday with all of the "facebook uprisings" here lately. What are some alternatives to radio and phone commo that could prove useful?

[RedJohn]

Flags ? U.S. Navy Signal Flags (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/communications/flags/flags.html)

Sorry, I had to.

[izzyscout21]

lol

[bacpacker]

Comms is kinda my thing (ham for years). But Without a radio, I would be in deep Sh_t. I probably do need to learn some quick and easy hand signals.

[The Stig]

Feeling a bit like a dolt here.

Read your post, rared back to unleash a lengthy and prolific tirade.......and then realized I got nutthing.

That ain't good.

Hummm....you raise a very interesting subject.

[bacpacker]

+1 Stig, exactly where I ended up. I have given this serious thought and the only thing I came up with not using electronics was a flag system, hand signals, both only useful for short ranges but can be effective it they are known and agreed on in advance. Long range what do you do, smoke signals?

[Stg1swret]

Here you go guys Semaphore Flag Signalling System (http://www.anbg.gov.au/flags/semaphore.html)

[bacpacker]

Something to consider for certain things for sure. I would imagine it's very slow and cumbersome.

[izzyscout21]

i wish there was something to send short bursts of data package.....or then again maybe ther is. just looking for something other than the obvious.

[mitunnelrat]

This may fall under you phone designation, but I've kicked around the idea of wiring in field phones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_telephone) once I have the property for it, since it would be an offgrid alternative to conventional phone systems.

There's another system we use at work called the bell telephone. A simple numeric code designates which employee the caller needs to speak with. The system could be adapted to pass messages that way as well, and could be even be relayed from one church to the next with a large enough network, much like the ancient system of signal fires.

hand written communication is a dying art it seems, but a trusted courier could pass messages over long distance this way.

[RedJohn]

It really depends on how far is the other one and the real need for communications.

[The Stig]

Once you take the obvious stuff away I'd think we'd be back to either field phones (excellent idea by the way) or "mechanical means" like smoke, flags or runners.

Field phones would be awesome for secure comms assuming both positions were fairly static.

And another issue to consider is whether the message is a back-and-forth or broadcast to a large crowd with little reply. If it's back-and-forth we'd need a system that was relatively quick and flexible. If it's a broadcast message something like "one if by land, two if by sea" is all you really need.

Damn....this is a great thread and excellent mental exercise.

[bacpacker]

For long distance I like the runner idea, again with someone trustworthy. Feild phone is a great idea for fixed positions that are not a great distance apart. That would be difficult to manage in a mobile situation either foot or vehicle.

Izzy's point about digital is doable. Maybe not totally secure, but it wouldn't be broadcast to the public. Still gotta have a radio (electronics) to do it.

[izzyscout21]

the only problem i see wiht the runner is that you have to know where the recipient is....

[izzyscout21]

so anyone been doing any thinking on this lately?

[hedgehog]

I have been thinking about this a bit. Field phones would be great, say under a couple of miles. Have to hide the line though. Burning tires is a favorite in places. can see it for miles, however if would be best for oh S#@$ situations to gather a group of size. Changing number of tires burned for different reasons; so you are not suckered by oposing groups. Runner for long distance and bell chimes for local.

[LUNCHBOX]

No offense, but I think the bells and smoke would be a dead giveaway to your location, I would say if an individual is close enough to see the flags then he could use binos or a scope and read hand signals without making a bigger target of yourself. I am guessing this is a security sensitive timeframe. (IMO)

[hedgehog]

Yes, Position compromised, or neighborhood being attacked. I think meet and greets at the barter area, watering hole would be it for a while. Good this came up. My plan was for the old mountain bike and a ride to friends house/ prearranged location. There is always cloak and dagger chalk marks, stacked stones etc. That being said there has to be a plan in place first.

[Stormfeather]

so other than radio's (hams, CB's, etc) what other forms of comms can you guys think of to support us post SHTF. I was giving this some thought the other day and again yesterday with all of the "facebook uprisings" here lately. What are some alternatives to radio and phone commo that could prove useful?

I would think as mentioned earlier, field phones are a great alternative, and they can be found pretty cheap thru military surplus stores. Regular speaker wire works as the terminal connector between the two, and that can be had cheap from Radio Shack. There are several pro's & con's to them, one of course being they can only be set up between static positions. But consider the possibilities, you can actually daisy chain these into a network if you needed to. Having done this down in 29 Palms in the desert, I can say from experience, you can get quite a long range set up as long as you have enough wire!
Runners are a great idea, as long as the runner knows where he is going, and as long as he isnt intercepted by bad guys, turns an ankle, car incident, rabid honey badger attack, ect ect. But also consider the timeframe you are talking about with a runner over distance, if the runner has a long distance to go, it may take a while to the point where the information they are transporting becomes null & void by the time it needed to be actionable.
Light sources to consider are those bright lights used by airports to signal location. (the ones that spin around and around) setting up one of those on a morse code system. Works great, of course mostly at night though!
All in all, this is a great mental exercise, Anyone thinking of any other options out there?

[The Stig]

....rabid honey badger attack....

http://lonesomebeehive.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/honey-badger-dont-care.jpg

[dragon5126]

Field phones are eaasier than most think, and hiding wires isnt that hard in metro areas since there are poles full of wire everywhere you look, so even the wire is there if you can ring it out. Bells and smoke are not normal comms but alarm type broadcasts so at that point your position usually is known. What nobody has hit on yet, however is message security. Anyone know how to build an enigma machine? We cant depend on computers to encode a msg as they may be fried along with the radios we can't use... so cyphers will be necessary for security if it comes to that. Also an alternative place to route field phone wires are storm and sanitary sewers....

[Dropy]

couple of tin cans and a piece of string ?

[izzyscout21]

is there any way to send short data bursts post SHTF?

[bacpacker]

What are you wanting to send? Some digital traffic can be sent with ham radio, email for example.

[izzyscout21]

look at it this way. I KNOW that the whole meltdown/ mad max scenario isn't going to happen (I cold be wrong), but it the comms grid goes down for whatever reasons, I for one would want to be able to communicate with, for starters, all of you. All of us are in different areas and have the ability to paint a bigger picture for each other. I just figured that traditional radio/ cell/ voice comms probably wouldnt be working, so I settled on the data transmissions.

[Dropy]

look at it this way. I KNOW that the whole meltdown/ mad max scenario isn't going to happen (I cold be wrong), but it the comms grid goes down for whatever reasons, I for one would want to be able to communicate with, for starters, all of you. All of us are in different areas and have the ability to paint a bigger picture for each other. I just figured that traditional radio/ cell/ voice comms probably wouldnt be working, so I settled on the data transmissions.

I agree here. Info is gonna be worth SOOOO much more than guns and bullets and food. A solid line of comms, for those who are interested, is well worth the cost and effort to do it.

If for no other reason in a shtf situation person A is in a bad area but person B is not. A can find this out and maybe get on the move with solid info instead of just picking a direction and HOPING it pans out for em. Plenty of scenarios and i KNOW you ex-military folks will back me up on this.

SO if we can find some way to do this i am in. Even if it is only doable in a group buy (to reduce costs) format.

[bacpacker]

Izzy the digital comms I was speaking of for sending e-mail will work station to station (me to you, or me to RJ) as long as we both have the same capabilites. It can also be used to send e-mail to the general public as long as the internet is up. I don't count on that being the case if SHTF. It may be even be taken down before then for various reason's.
For local digital comm's, depending on distance digipeater (basically a digital repeater may be needed. For long distance, from say across state to across the country or around the world you have to have HF capabilities including radio and TNC (terminal node controller, this unit converts the radio transmission to digital and back again when recieving a message.
There are many other digital modes for both VHF/UHF and HF bands. they all have their own pros and cons. A set up to be able to work all this, local and worldwide, could be had for under $1500 up to as much as you want to spend.
Currently I am set up to work 3 different digital modes on VHF/UHF. I will be able to do voice comms on HF once I get an antenna up. But I would need to get a TNC for HF before being able to work any digital.

[Dropy]

I need to learn this stuff for when we move to alaska.

[bacpacker]

The one for e-mail I was referring to is called Winlink 2000.
Check it out at

http://winlink.org

You have to have a ham license to use it, but other than that it works well. A ham buddy of mine set his RV up for HF comms and he and his wife took a 6 month trip up the left coast to Alaska back down thru Montana and the Dakotas. They had email at just about every stop. Stayed in contact with freinds and family the whole trip.

[dragon5126]

simple ham packet will work and can be used to send secured info through encrypted codes, but in all seriousness do not underestimate the plausability of an EMP. While on a national level it's a scifi event in all probability, it is a very real threat with in regions of several hundred miles in diameter. Now I'm not one prone to conspiracy theories but recall the cruise ship situation earlier this year and the socalled missle test by the chinese, the time frames were just too perfect, and the complete failure of all electrical and electronic systems on that ship just wasnt plausable but it happened...

So we really do need to consider pre 20th century otions as well as the digital age

[dragon5126]

An fyi, I've been running 2meter packet for as long as I've had my license. with its basic error correction it gets through, just like we did in the days of phone line modems and dial in bbs systems (before everyone got on the internet). Ive used it for running comms for marathons and similar events, for emergency evacuations and exchanging jokes. If you can type it it can be sent quickly if it can be sent through a cypher it can be sent securely (not legal when there is not a state of emergency however due to the regulations involved). I've even run it in my jeep while out four wheeling... just didnt type and drive at the same time...

[bacpacker]

2M packet is one of the modes I can operate. We used it mainly for emcomm's but sent test and BS a lot just to stay familiar. It's great for local traffic.

Alnog with Winlink2K, we also use APRS both for messaging short bits (144 charactors) and tracking. We've used the tracking feature during public service events like bike rides and runs to tracking high altitude baloons. Those were really fun and one of our guys was on the recovery crew of one of the launches.

[dragon5126]

APRS is a ball. A handful of years ago my oldest spent all of AES SUPERFEST working with her "adopted" Uncle Gordo, Gordon West, setting up hsi APRS equipment and running his demo station for him durinf his presentation and autograph sessions. We've known Gordon for about 10 years, and his pre ham background being music, ended up giving him and my oldest a lot in common as she is a music ed major. It's ironic how ham radio brings people of so many backgrounds together.


Edit: For those of you who have noticed my funky typos. As I am typically on here late at nite, my laptop is laying on my chest and it's super easy to hit the wrong keys or hit the key too light this way...

[dpwill99]

Okay- Here is a far out option that no one has brought up yet. I know it would require a lot of planning in advance and would be a bit of a pain in the butt, but historically it worked for a lot of years. What about carrier pigeon communication? It would be effective over reasonably long distances, wouldn't be something anyone would suspect or that would draw any undue attention, wouldn't be subject to EMP takedown and in a real pinch could be a food source. I know everyone is probably laughing right now, but you all DID say to think outside the box on this one!

[bacpacker]

Will you have a excellent point. I for one though would have a clue where begin at.
Where do you get breeding stock? Is it just normal pigeons? I assume there is trianing to be done? Folks on both ends would need to be trianed?
Something worth exploring to be sure.

[dpwill99]

I've done just a bit of research on the subject. Here are just a couple of links- http://mashable.com/2009/09/10/carrier-pigeons-adsl/
How to Raise Carrier Pigeons | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_2076760_raise-carrier-pigeons.html)
Cher Ami - The Carrier Pigeon who saved 200 men (http://www.homeofheroes.com/wings/part1/3b_cherami.html)
Homing Pigeons For Sale - Homing Pigeons (http://www.homingpigeonsforsale.com/)

Definitely a wealth of information on the subject out there. Looks like there is an international racing association and everything. Like I said, outside of what we would think of as "normal" operational parameters, but after SHTF everything is going to be abnormal anyway.

[dragon5126]

Anyone ever hear od squab? Mighty fine eating... My MOTHER introduced me to it as a kid. it's Pigeon. So carrier pigeon is not so far out there. It Does requre effort to raise homing pigeons, and there are club that race them. They will take their racers to another state and release them. Then log their return to the coop. So to work they will need to be physically transported to the release site and message size is relatively small but it IS viable and practical. ANd as not all pigeons raised are suitable homing/racing pigeons or breeding stock, regular culling of the flock to keep the quality up is necessary. So it also will supply a food source and a fertilizer supply, the same as chickens do.

[Gunfixr]

I also have something I haven't seen mentioned yet.
Sound powered phones. I don't know if they are still in use, but they were hard-wired into submarines and ships, going everywhere. You simply used a call bell to ring the station you want, and they pick up the phone, a normal looking handset. There is a button to push, and you both hold the button. You voice powers it, and all it needs is a two-wire lead. A friend I had who was in the Navy brought me two of them, and I simply wired a standard electrical plug onto them. I can now connect them with any standard extension cord, and they work.
I do not know how far they will work, and since I only have 2, I do not know if they can be wired into a net. But, since on the ship it is a net, I suppose it is just a matter of the right wiring connections.
They require no batteries, and since they are just handsets and connecting wires, there's not much to carry.

[Stg1swret]

Sound powered phones will work over quite a distance. The wiring is the only vulnerability. You can wire as many as you want into a network. Most of the ships I was stationed on din't have a cal bell however. You just identified whom you wanted to speak to, and started your conversation.

[DragoSapien]

I to am a ham, and iv been kicking around the idea of packet (like 2m ham) that can be used with a GMRS radio. Dont know if it can be done, but would be good for local comm. and for those that dont have a ham lic.

[bacpacker]

I know packet type comms can be used on the UHF band. Since Gmrs is just above the UHF ham band, (GMRS 460MHZ, HAM 440 MHZ) if you can work out the connections I see no reason it wouldn't work. You will need a TNC (Terminal Node Controller) to transfer the digital data to the radio transmission and to take it back on the receive end.

[dragon5126]

I to am a ham, and iv been kicking around the idea of packet (like 2m ham) that can be used with a GMRS radio. Dont know if it can be done, but would be good for local comm. and for those that dont have a ham lic.
It is, shall I say, frowned upon as the GMRS IS a LICENSED radio service. you fill out the papers and get a license type thing and is not meant for data, There are land mobile frequencies, also a licensed service that will allow data. but basic 300-2400 baud packet can be done on literally an radio capable of FM operation. even the cheap frs rigs will do it. ofcourse if we are talking about when anarchy hits the rules wont matter any more...