Bov .. Which would be better.. Gas or diesel

[Metrocruiser]

Hi peeps,

I hope you all had a nice summer.

I've been dreaming about getting a Bov 4x4 for years now. It would also be used as the weekend recreational suv to tow a 14 foot rigid inflate boat and trailer, roof top tent and logging roads and the odd creek crossing.

I was looking at emp resistant 78.79 bronco but now Im leaning towards a 91.97 landcruiser with front.rear lockers. The Japanese RHD imports come with a 4.2 turbo diesel which gets great feedback. However I am not fond of the RHD and my wife is a horrible driver to boot.

I don't know anything about diesels.
If shtf what would be easier to get fuel for.
Which fuel would store in the garage better.

Would you get a gas or diesel engine? & why

[Fidel MD]

I would say diesel. Better mileage (especially towing) than a gas engine in the same sized vehicle/load, stores well long term, not as dangerously explosive, often less expensive per gallon. Also gives you the option in emergencies of using off-road diesel, heating oil, etc although you have to carefully filter it to get the crud and water out.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Guess it depends on your opinion right, I like the gas. There will be more dead vehicles that run on gas then diesel when the SHTF so there will be more spare gas tanks for pillaging........just a thought.

[helomech]

Guess it depends on your opinion right, I like the gas. There will be more dead vehicles that run on gas then diesel when the SHTF so there will be more spare gas tanks for pillaging........just a thought.

I doubt that. If the vehicle is dead, it is probably out of gas, or a emp hit. Either way your gas vehicle won't be running. I think diesel is the way to go. Way easier to store the fuel, better fuel mileage, less effects by emp, more durable. And once that diesel is running emp won't really effect it, at least the old diesels.

[Fidel MD]

I doubt that. If the vehicle is dead, it is probably out of gas, or a emp hit. Either way your gas vehicle won't be running. I think diesel is the way to go. Way easier to store the fuel, better fuel mileage, less effects by emp, more durable. And once that diesel is running emp won't really effect it, at least the old diesels.

That.... getting gas out of abandoned vehicles will be the one of the first things people think of.

And older diesels (up to around 1997 or 1998 Ford Powerstrokes with the early 7.3L engine, not sure about Cummins and GMC) are absolutely EMP proof - mechanical injection, the only thing you need electricity for are the glow plugs, and that relay is cheap and easy to replace.

[ElevenBravo]

Diesel, better tq. for pulling loads and way better MPG... Even with my '82 K5 Blazer, I get better MPG than the wife's Geo Tracker....

My truck has the 6.2l Detroit Diesel engine... it is ALL mechanical, theres NOTHING electronic about it... I like it that way.

EB

[Possom]

IMO if all you are going to be towing is a 14ft boat smaller is better. A jeep CJ7 perhaps or an old school jeep Comanche pickup. Both are very simple in design and easy to work on with minimal tools available.

I am not sure on the weight of your boat but you might also consider a 79-85 model toyota hilux pickup. Aftermarket parts out the wazoo for these trucks thanks to the rock crawling industry. The 22re engines in these trucks are very well built and fuel efficient. 4x4 is about the best around.

The argument between gas and diesel has been around for years. Both have their good and bad. My biggest consideration would have to be mileage. If I can get 25-30mpg out of a small engine versus 12-15mpg out of a big engine I will stick with a small engine and get more out of the same amount of fuel.

On a side note, another great vehicle for these purposes would be a diesel powered Chevy luv but they are extremely hard to find these days.

[Gunfixr]

Diesel hasn't been cheaper than gas for some time now. It's cheaper to make, but it sure doesn't sell cheaper.
Also, off-road diesel isn't loaded with water and crud anymore than road diesel. Off road vehicles use the same engines, that still wouldn't run on it. The difference is that off-road diesel hasn't been federally road-taxed, so it's cheaper. Dye is added so that it can be visually spotted. If you get caught with off-road in your on-road vehicle, the fines are rather large.
Post-shtf, this won't matter.
As for storage, it is better, but still requires precautions, depending on your region. It still has paraffin (wax) in it, which will separate out in cold temps. This is called "gelling". A stabilizer can be added, or some kerosene to prevent this. The kerosene will make the engine run just a bit warmer. It ends up being kind of like an octane booster for gas.
On pre-computer diesels (don't know about post-computer), kerosene and oil can be mixed to run without engine mods. To a point, gas can be mixed with oil and diesel or kerosene in a pinch. Natural oils, like cooking oils (not all of them) can be used as well, once certain mods are done. I suppose in a pinch they can be mixed with diesel or kerosene without mods, but haven't tried it. I do have a friend very experienced in running oils in a diesel. It would stand to reason that fuel oils could be diluted down to diesel characteristics with kerosene or other additives, but haven't tried that either. I have done kerosene and oil, and gas and oil, with diesel added.
The glow plugs are attached to a small brain that is also connected to temp sensors. This tells the plugs how long to run. For instance, the older 6.9L Ford used 6v plugs in the 12v system for higher heat. Because of this, the max run time was 9 seconds, to prevent burnout. After emp, just wire a momentary switch to the power relay to bypass the dead brain and count it yourself. Don't go above 9 seconds. Most times, about 4 to 6 seconds will start it. Ether can be substituted, but it forms a glaze in the pre-chambers, insulating them from glow plug heat once you replace them. This is how they get "ether addiction". This can also be corrected. Once the engine is running, remove the air cleaner and spray wd-40 directly down the intake. Spray continuously until the engine is just about to die out, let it clear, and repeat. Several times a day, for several days, will clean out the glaze.

As for gas over diesel, that also depends on where you are. Cities will not have much diesel, except in city owned larger vehicles, airport vehicles, military vehicles, and tractor-trailers. Depending on how it all went down, many of these vehicles may not be around. The vast majority will be gas. Many stations in large cities don't even sell diesel. City run stations will have it, but since there won't be many, other "scavengers" looking for diesel will concentrate there.
Rural will have more farm equipment and privately owned diesels.

Unless you modify your BOV, most US civilian designs tend to run about a 300-350 mile trip per tank, when you look at mpg and tank capacity.

[Fidel MD]

I get 21 mpg in my F250 Superduty 2012, up hill, down hill, even towing moderately sized trailers (I get around 15 towing my 5th wheel RV that weighs around 16000 lbs loaded). I've had it up as high as 24 mpg for extended periods on the freeway, cruising light.

While diesel is sometimes more, sometimes less expensive than gasoline, the mileage advantage more than makes up for the times its more expensive (at least to me).

[MegaCPC]

Gunfixr covered a lot of good stuff.

The basic difference between a gas engine and a diesel engine is this:

In a gas engine the fuel is ignited by an ignition system with spark plugs.

A diesel engine ignites the fuel simply by compressing it.

A mechanical diesel is about the most likely to run in any scenario. I watched a 671 Detroit run out of diesel, and keep running on the oil it was sucking past the worn out cylinder rings. It probably would have run until the pan was dry if we didn't choke it out.

If I were to buy a dedicated BOV it would be diesel.

[ElevenBravo]

Fixr did a good writeup of many of the basics.

True, that diesel does cost more per gallon, given the right setup a diesel engine will yield better to much better MPG than an equal displacement gas engine, and in addition will yield much greater MPG while pulling a load.

A little vehicle like a CJ is a cool idea, but the short wheel base keeps it from being a steady vehicle when pulling a decent load.

(I am bouncing around ideas, so bear with the disconnects...)

An older diesel like mine is very simple, the only thing I do is twice a year toss in a qt. of transmission fluid with a FULL fill up to clear out the injectors some.

A diesel engine will yield greater reliability and over all life span (given proper maintenance). For example, my truck has a mechanical (DB2) fuel injector pump that not only generates the HP squirt, but also does the timing... NO COMPUTER. The transmission is a 700R4, shift points are adjusted via a TV cable to the valve body, NO COMPUTER. There is no I.C. or computer or wire to come loose to prevent operation. I *could* start the engine, and disconnect the batteries and CONTINUE to run without depending on the generator's output OR batteries. This CANNOT be done on ANY gasoline engine, since even with an older engine a high voltage spark is needed to ignite the gas, so electricity MUST be present...

Ive gone over the pro's and con's for a decade before I made the switch to diesel, and I DO NOT REGRET IT ONE BIT! It would be nice to have a sweet 4 door Dodge with a Cummins and stick shift, sitting on a 6" lift and a camper cap... BUT, I dont have the money for one, and theres a LOT more to go wrong with current day (read: complicated) diesel engines.

Im old skool, for a reason. :-) (And you thought it was just because I was poor! Well, that does play into it just a little! HA HA).

Good thread, good discussion.
EB

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Also, when *I* bug out (If/when/Etc) its going to be with a trailer crammed full of crap, and the truck crammed full of crap, plus the three of us and whatever I can strap on the hood and the roof... so IMHO, Im going to have a heavy load... I cannot in my mind imagine someone bugging out with a Chevy Luv and have enough to sustain them selves on.

The only exception is BOL or a retreat, where everything you need for the long term is ALREADY in place... then I can see the logic.

EB

[Possom]

From reading the original post the only thing he was going to be pulling was a boat once in a while. A CJ7 shouldn't have trouble doing that.


With a hardtop and roof rack he should be able to carry his tent etc.

If more space is needed a CJ can be coupled with an M416 trailer and still go just about anywhere.

The diesel powered Chevy luv was more or less just my personal want. Lol

[Metrocruiser]

Hi all,

Thanks for the great info regarding diesels and gas engines. I have learned a lot from your info posted here.
Id like to find a good size vehicle so that I can comfortably fit all of us in + our gear that may be fishing, gold panning, boating, camping equipment. It would be hard in a jeep. Our DD is a full size SUV (Nissan Armada) and sometimes we are challenged to fit our groceries when all of us go to Costco. As well we have the stuff that always stays in the suv. Bob is an action pack about 24x16x12" that sits inside of a collapsible crate that stacks with another one beside it if necessary. A case of water, portable toilet, dog gear, tie straps, tow rope etc.

Diesels sound sexy.

[ElevenBravo]

Poss, I hope you didnt take my reply wrongly... On the CJ thing, it has its good and bad, I didnt point out the good but only the bad...

On the Luv, they are great trucks... but small.

This is one reason why its a good thing there are SO MANY DIFFERENT vehicles! :-)

I just wanted to make sure we were cool, I sensed I may have come off curt, which I tend to do sometimes... but not with intention.


EB

[Possom]

Oh not at all. I was operating under the assumption it was just the original poster and their spouse. With kids it changes the equation. With kids involved I think I would go with a pre-1985 Toyota 4runner. Solid front axle rig. 22re engine. Strong little rigs that have lots of aftermarket upgrades available.

My wife and I have 4 children so I know how that goes. We have a full size 4 door Nissan Titan 4x4 to haul us and everything we require around.

For a BOV I have always thought smaller is better. I can go places in my jeep that a full sized rig couldn't get into. I guess that would have a lot to do with location though. I live on the edge of a national forest with lots of old logging roads that are narrow and tight.

[ElevenBravo]

Im kinda the other side of the fence... With my K5, I obviously want ROOM and a BIG vehicle... There are many camps to the BOV... and honestly, none are wrong... it boils down to individual needs & mission... Local terrain, etc.. There are too many variables to give definitive advice.

However, I will still bet my balls that diesel is best. :-)

EB

[Dropy]

I own an F250 with a 7.3 liter turbo diesel. I will still own gas vehicles, but for power, pulling and just plain being a workhorse I will never ask a gas to do what my diesel can do.

[Gunfixr]

I honestly wasn't trying to push a decision in either direction, only to give some of the differences. Around here, diesel has been quite a bit higher than gas for some time now, as in several years. While diesel mpg may be higher, so costs may or may not balance out, one thing that needs to be considered is driving distance post-shtf. If you're scavenging fuel, price is irrelevant. That was my point in that most vehicles go about the same distance per tank of fuel. The primary exception would be dual tank pickups, and maybe some SUVs. Newer diesels have computers, and are not emp proof.
A diesel is a natural multi-fuel engine, unlike gas. Diesels do generate more torque, but are usually slower, off the line and having less pickup, even though their overall top speeds are similar.
It still comes down to mission, and availability.
Do you want fast, or powerful? Is there more gas around, or lots of diesel?

I had an '84 F250 with a 6.9L diesel, C6 auto. The axles had been swapped out for M715 1 1/4 ton militarys, and the chain drive transfer case swapped for a NP 205. The rear had a Detroit Locker. It was sitting on 44" tires. That truck would pull a house down, but topped out at about 64 MPH. In the end, it was just no longer affordable, and sat in the yard.

For all the pulling/pushing power of diesel, they are noisy. You will not sneak anywhere with one, unless you have one of the small cars or trucks, and then you don't have the pulling/pushing power, just the mpg. If you got something to tow, great. But if not, how hidden are you after you push a big trail through the wilderness right to your door? Better off slipping through. How many think they are going to ram roadblocks? Driving skill beats vehicle power every time for getting somewhere, except maybe for some off-roading scenarios. But you don't want to be looking at big mudholes and seeing if you can get through them for the hell of it when bugging out.

Personally though, I think that if you're planning on scavenging fuel, there will be more gas than diesel to be had. Post-shtf, there will be major governmental attempt to keep the infrastructure up and running, to maintain control. Most of that at the local and state level is fueled by gasoline. The military is not going to give away any diesel, and, if trucks are running supplies, they will be protected by the military.
Other than emp, and towing heavy stuff, I don't see much of a big advantage to diesels. It's like .45 vs 9mm. Each is good, each has pros and cons. They're each different from the other.
In gas or diesel, 9mm or .45, AR or AK, if it had been established that one was absolutely superior to the other in every way, the inferior one would have disappeared.
But that's just my opinion.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

ON the EMP note...........everyone seems to forget the older vehicles. Uh, Emp won't hurt them either. Just a thought.

[helomech]

ON the EMP note...........everyone seems to forget the older vehicles. Uh, Emp won't hurt them either. Just a thought.

Sure it will, they still have an electrical system. All gasoline vehicles would be effected. Look at the solar flare in the late 1800's, it fried most of the telegraph lines on the planet. Only diesel engines that are already running, or capable of being started by hydraulics or hand crank will be running. If your vehicle relies on a electrical starter you are screwed.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Enlighten me, ol wise one. I'm not doubting your wisdom, I would just like to hear your explanation, please. I just don't remember hearing it that way is all. Thanks.

[helomech]

Enlighten me, ol wise one. I'm not doubting your wisdom, I would just like to hear your explanation, please. I just don't remember hearing it that way is all. Thanks.


Because the require a source of electricity, a coil, contacts, spark plug wires, and spark plugs. All these would be burned out in a real emp. Plus the battery, starter, starter relay, and wires would be fried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

The only engines that I know of that would not be effected would be diesels that are already running, or have a way to turn them over (either hydraulics, air source, or crank), steam engines, rockets, and pulse jets. As far as I know all others would be dead.

More here. http://greekgeek.hubpages.com/hub/massive-solar-flare-1859

More seriously, the solar storm battered the world's infant communication network. Telegraph wires burst into flames, touching off fires (while in other cases fire crews were called to fires that did not exist, due to the fiery lights in the sky). Telegraph machines scorched paper printouts, stunned operators with electric shocks, transmitted gibberish, and continued working for hours even after being unplugged from the batteries that powered them. The Earth itself was no longer "grounded"!

For two days, the light show and electromagnetic storm continued, then faded.

[Fidel MD]

Maybe, maybe not. Batteries are inherently EMP resistant, so are starter windings. Its electronics that are at most risk. And the older diesels have only a glow plug relay.

[Gunfixr]

My understanding was that emp would fry electronics, such as anything with chips or a board.
Simple electrics, wouldn't be damaged, unless maybe they were real lightly built, and just overloaded.

If you're right, and anything that conducts electricity will no longer work, then it no longer matters what you drive.
It's done, or will be when it finally stops running, and you cannot re-start it.
We all need bicycles, or a horse.

You'd have to have a pre-computer diesel, with an engine driven fuel pump, and with a manual transmission, and the candidates for Mr Olympia to push start it.

ETA: early to late '70s vehicles, without computers still had an electronic ignition box, which would be fried. However, since it is a simple plug in box, extras could be stored appropriately. But, good condition vehicles of that age are getting rare, and parts getting more rare. There has been a definite purposeful drive to eliminate all of the older vehicles and parts from junkyards for years, as part of getting everybody driving newer vehicles, to comply with epa standards.

[helomech]

Maybe, maybe not. Batteries are inherently EMP resistant, so are starter windings. Its electronics that are at most risk. And the older diesels have only a glow plug relay.

Explain all the telegraph wires catching fire in 1859.

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My understanding was that emp would fry electronics, such as anything with chips or a board.
Simple electrics, wouldn't be damaged, unless maybe they were real lightly built, and just overloaded.

If you're right, and anything that conducts electricity will no longer work, then it no longer matters what you drive.
It's done, or will be when it finally stops running, and you cannot re-start it.
We all need bicycles, or a horse.

You'd have to have a pre-computer diesel, with an engine driven fuel pump, and with a manual transmission, and the candidates for Mr Olympia to push start it.

ETA: early to late '70s vehicles, without computers still had an electronic ignition box, which would be fried. However, since it is a simple plug in box, extras could be stored appropriately. But, good condition vehicles of that age are getting rare, and parts getting more rare. There has been a definite purposeful drive to eliminate all of the older vehicles and parts from junkyards for years, as part of getting everybody driving newer vehicles, to comply with epa standards.

No one has experienced a nuclear blast above a country. Just like the solar flare of 1859 anything that can carry electricity was fried, only thing that really existed then was telegraph wires and they burned causing fires all over the place. Some diesel engines have hydraulic chambers that can be pumped up by hand and when a manual button is pushed the pressurized hydraulic fluid spins a hydraulic starter which starts the engine. I pumped many of these things up. Even the Apache helicopter starts with a system like this.. Or if your diesel engine does not have a hydraulic starter system I would suggest only stopping the engine on top of a hill, and I hope you bought a manual transmission.

[Gunfixr]

Ok, you kept referring to this event in 1859, which I had never heard of, so I searched it.

What happened in 1859 was not EMP, it was a Geomagnetic Storm.

Having just looked up both EMP and this storm, I could explain it, but it's lengthy.

In short, a Geomagnetic Storm is when the Earths Magnetoshpere is disturbed by a solar wind. This increases the movement of plasma in the magnetosphere and causes an increase in the electric current in the magnetosphere and ionoshpere. In 1859, large solar flares caused a large Geomagnetic Storm. This caused increased ground induced currents, which apparently overloaded everything, causing the problems you refer to.

From what I just learned, pretty much totally different than EMP.

[helomech]

Ok, you kept referring to this event in 1859, which I had never heard of, so I searched it.

What happened in 1859 was not EMP, it was a Geomagnetic Storm.

Having just looked up both EMP and this storm, I could explain it, but it's lengthy.

In short, a Geomagnetic Storm is when the Earths Magnetoshpere is disturbed by a solar wind. This increases the movement of plasma in the magnetosphere and causes an increase in the electric current in the magnetosphere and ionoshpere. In 1859, large solar flares caused a large Geomagnetic Storm. This caused increased ground induced currents, which apparently overloaded everything, causing the problems you refer to.

From what I just learned, pretty much totally different than EMP.

They are different in cause, but not different in the energy used. Both release large amounts of magnetic energy, and have the same effects on electronic and electrical devices.

What is a solar flare?

Sometimes a sudden, rapid, and intense variation in brightness is seen on the Sun. That is a solar flare. A solar flare occurs when magnetic energy that has built up in the solar atmosphere is suddenly released. On the Sun's surface are huge magnetic loops called prominences. When they touch, they short circuit each other, setting off explosions. The amount of energy released is the equivalent of millions of 100-megaton hydrogen bombs exploding at the same time! A solar flare contains high energy photons and particles, and is released from the Sun in a relatively short amount of time (a few minutes).

An electromagnetic pulse is a burst of electromagnetic energy.

Either is likely to happen and be the cause of a SHTF event. The solar flare would be much worse, because it would effect the entire world, where the nuclear emp would be more isolated. Even if these are different (Which I say their effects are the same) the op did not ask about EMP's, he was asking about SHTF events. A solar flare is probably more likely than a emp.

[ElevenBravo]

pretty much totally different than EMP.
From the casual reading, I am in similar conclusion. Plus a pulse and an event have different durations, regardless of the nature...

Tip 'O Da Day: Since were hovering around the EMP speculation, but before we get back on focus... Dont forget to have some old school flashlights handy, because the LED flashlights will be door stops and paper weights after such a pulse. (Given they are not stored in a real Faraday Cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage).)


EB

[Fidel MD]

Explain all the telegraph wires catching fire in 1859.

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No one has experienced a nuclear blast above a country. Just like the solar flare of 1859 anything that can carry electricity was fried, only thing that really existed then was telegraph wires and they burned causing fires all over the place. Some diesel engines have hydraulic chambers that can be pumped up by hand and when a manual button is pushed the pressurized hydraulic fluid spins a hydraulic starter which starts the engine. I pumped many of these things up. Even the Apache helicopter starts with a system like this.. Or if your diesel engine does not have a hydraulic starter system I would suggest only stopping the engine on top of a hill, and I hope you bought a manual transmission.


Inductive coupling from miles and miles of wires, acting as antennas. Starter windings in a steel case, surrounded by a steel truck? Not so much. Likewise, a lead-acid battery is a giant flat plate capacitor system. Hard to damage with an EM spike when your plates are a quarter-inch thick and a half-inch apart.



Oh, I'd say that Japan has experience with a nuclear strike (atomic, anyway). So does the US, with the Starfish Prime test events causing trouble in Hawaii (it was a State in 1962).

[Gunfixr]

Actually, from what I could find, they are different.
In a Geomagnetic storm, solar wind, not electricity causes a flex in the earths magnetosphere, which causes it to shift. This magnetic fluctuation makes electric current, which seeks discharge. Yes, it affects things like long electric lines, and can overload or burn out electrical things which can take the charge. But ti does not fry circuit boards en-masse. From what I could find, that would only happen if they were hooked up to a sufficiently long electrical "loop" for it to catch the current.
It apparently disturbs electrical grids, interferes with comms, and interferes with satellites, and not much else.
Apparently there are multiple types of emp charges. Lightning is one, along with electrostatic discharge, as well as the talked about nuclear. Even electrical motors and gas engines can generate low level emp. The electromagnetic pulse generates an electrical current in or on metal objects. If the current generated is more than the metal can handle, it is burned out. This would explain why circuit boards, which are covered with very fine metal are fried, but wired electrical items that have much heavier metal to carry amp loads do not. Nuclear emp has 3 components, of which apparently only one of those components are present in the solar storm. Whether or not emp affects something is also related to how much metal it is connected to, as it needs a certain amount to gather enough energy to fry the item. How much is needed is dependent on how sensitive the item is, and how much emp energy is released, and how far away it was released. Apparently, many small solid state radios would not even be affected, so long as they were not plugged in and the antenna was not extended. Also, apparently many vehicles would be left running. The electrical grid would go down not because of the lines, but because of the electronic connection and control components.
So, while a nuclear emp has the same component as a solar storm, the solar storm does not have the most damaging component (the one that fries electronics) of the nuclear emp.

[MegaCPC]

Lots of good info coming out of this thread.

Another thing in an older car that might fry is the ballast resistor for the alternator.

[Metrocruiser]

Yes!!

Great info... But still trying to figure out what it all equals in regards to what vehicles could possibly be nuclear and mother nature proof from emp.

Thanks for all the great research guys.

[helomech]

Inductive coupling from miles and miles of wires, acting as antennas. Starter windings in a steel case, surrounded by a steel truck? Not so much. Likewise, a lead-acid battery is a giant flat plate capacitor system. Hard to damage with an EM spike when your plates are a quarter-inch thick and a half-inch apart.



Oh, I'd say that Japan has experience with a nuclear strike (atomic, anyway). So does the US, with the Starfish Prime test events causing trouble in Hawaii (it was a State in 1962).

Like I said it depends on the power, a emp 100 miles away might not damage the electrical system, but one closer to impact will do lots of damage. To many variables to have a answer. My point is I would not count on my vehicle starting after a emp, no matter how old it is. If it starts great, but i would not bet my life on it.

Yes, but nuclear strike is different then emp. A nuk detonated in the atmosphere is what you want for a emp. Detonating on ground or near ground is better for killing people, but less effective as emp.

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Actually, from what I could find, they are different.
In a Geomagnetic storm, solar wind, not electricity causes a flex in the earths magnetosphere, which causes it to shift. This magnetic fluctuation makes electric current, which seeks discharge. Yes, it affects things like long electric lines, and can overload or burn out electrical things which can take the charge. But ti does not fry circuit boards en-masse. From what I could find, that would only happen if they were hooked up to a sufficiently long electrical "loop" for it to catch the current.
It apparently disturbs electrical grids, interferes with comms, and interferes with satellites, and not much else.
Apparently there are multiple types of emp charges. Lightning is one, along with electrostatic discharge, as well as the talked about nuclear. Even electrical motors and gas engines can generate low level emp. The electromagnetic pulse generates an electrical current in or on metal objects. If the current generated is more than the metal can handle, it is burned out. This would explain why circuit boards, which are covered with very fine metal are fried, but wired electrical items that have much heavier metal to carry amp loads do not. Nuclear emp has 3 components, of which apparently only one of those components are present in the solar storm. Whether or not emp affects something is also related to how much metal it is connected to, as it needs a certain amount to gather enough energy to fry the item. How much is needed is dependent on how sensitive the item is, and how much emp energy is released, and how far away it was released. Apparently, many small solid state radios would not even be affected, so long as they were not plugged in and the antenna was not extended. Also, apparently many vehicles would be left running. The electrical grid would go down not because of the lines, but because of the electronic connection and control components.
So, while a nuclear emp has the same component as a solar storm, the solar storm does not have the most damaging component (the one that fries electronics) of the nuclear emp.

I am no expert on either of these things, but seems like they are very similar to me. And there are so many variables like you state above that no answer can really be given. Only thing I can say for certain is that a old diesel engine with a hydraulic starter will start after either event. Whether or not the gas engine will start or run is debatable. Great topic though.

[Gunfixr]

I am definitely not an expert either, although I learned more about this in the last day than I ever knew, because of this discussion.
So here is some of what I learned:
Despite much of what floats around as "facts" about emp and automobiles, not much is really known. There were tests done about emp, both ground nuclear and air burst nuclear, back in the '50s and '60s. There were also automotive specific tests done using an emp generator back around then. Of course, "electronics" then was much different now, so the results are of limited use. Based on those tests are what some scientists guess would happen now. Despite that, there are also the variables due to the size of the weapon, and whether it is ground or airburst. Also, the size of the weapon is not entirely representative of the emp results. There are 3 components of emp related to a nuclear weapon. Geomagnetic storms generate only the 3rd component type. The 1st component type is the one most damaging to electronic components. This type is directly related to gamma rays, which is only pertly related to megaton output. Apparently, you could take a large megaton weapon, but encase it too weakly, and it would rupture before the total megaton energy is reached, but you would get a much higher gamma ray output, generating much higher output of the emp 1st type. So, megaton output by itself cannot be used to determine how much emp would be generated. Multiple burst would increase the 3rd type component of emp, the one which did all the damage back in the 1850s. Distance does have some effect, but apparently not in the way most people think.
Vehicle testing that was done had some seriously limiting factors. Apparently the vehicles used were borrowed, with the testers being held financially responsible for the vehicles, and the vehicles expected to returned in good working order. Obviously, you cannot just "go 'till it quits" with these limitations. So, an emp generator was used, and output was increased until effects were seen. Once the vehicle started to run erratically, or shut off, the test was stopped. In all but one, the vehicle could be restarted, or the battery disconnected to reset things and then the vehicle restarted. Only one vehicle needed to be sent to a shop for minor repairs. Of course, now 50yrs later, it doesn't even matter, as vehicles have changed so much electronically. However, based on other factors known about emp, many, if not most, vehicles that are not close to the initial detonation point would more than likely run. This is due to several things. One, while the electronics are sensitive to the emp, the wiring makes for an "antenna" which catches the energy, and vehicles don't generally have enough length of wiring to work. Also, the metal body, even though not perfect, does offer protection, and with the limitations of the wiring, is going to be enough in many, if not most, cases. The electronic ignition of most automobiles is actually somewhat protected from emp, as the high energy generated for the spark plugs has an emp component. This gets us to protection. Since wiring length has a direct effect of how much emp is channeled into any item that might be susceptible, protecting it is not as difficult as it may seem. Also, different items have differing amounts of susceptibility to emp to begin with, some things needing more emp to damage them than others. Therefore, depending on the amount of emp energy present at the point where your item is, and the amount it actually takes to damage it, your item may not even be damaged. What the item will take before damage is related to how sensitive the electronics are, and how "connected" to the emp source it is, which is, is it wired into a large enough circuit to gather enough energy, or does it have a large enough antenna to gather this energy? Unplugging items from the wall will be adequate to protect many of them from emp, as they do not have sufficient internal wiring, or an antenna to catch enough emp energy to damage it. As for the "faraday cage", even an improper one will offer some protection. So, if you have a mostly enclosed item, and it offers enough protection to reduce the emp that gets past it to the point below the item inside's damage threshold, then the item will survive.
Of course, unplugging the microwave so that it will survive may be meaningless if the power grid went down. But then, if you have an alternate power supply, you could be GTG.
It also has become apparent, to me at least, that the whole "emp effects" thing is much more complicated than it first appears. It also has become apparent that the effects of emp, particularly some distance away, or in ground bursts, is not nearly as all encompassing as it is thought. It appears the main thing is to have some sort of alternate power source that is protected.
Steel is not a good faraday cage material, as it is not suitably conductive. In order for steel to work, it must be complete, with complete contact. Painted ammo cans, for instance, don't really work. About the only steel container that does is the galvanized trash can, so long as nothing breaks the full contact between the lid and can. Copper and aluminum make much better faraday cage material. Actually, wrapping the protected item in plastic, to keep it from contacting the metal of the cage, and then wrapping it completely with aluminum foil makes a good faraday cage, as long as there aren't any good sized gaps. "Nesting" of faraday cages is even better. This would be the layer of plastic to break contact, the foil, another layer of plastic, then another of foil, and so on. Thickness of the metal only helps to a certain point, as once a certain thickness is achieved, more offers no more protection. Multiple layers of thinner material works better, as even is some emp energy gets past the first layer, it is significantly reduced, and there is less to pass the next layer. The plastic thickness needs to be sufficient to keep the energy from just burning through from one layer of metal to the next. Plastic wraps are considered too thin, heavy bags are better. For instance, small items individually wrapped with foil shields could be placed inside the trash can. Nested shields are better than a single shield. I haven't been able to relocate it this morning, but I saw somewhere that even an imperfect cage does offer limited protection. In some instances, it may be enough. This depends on the level of the emp energy at the location, how much protection is offered, and how high the threshold for damage is in the item you are trying to protect. It was believed that even most garages would protect most vehicles under most circumstances. There may be nuisance failures, like the radio or if it has a computer controlled heat/ac may not work, but the already somewhat protected ignition may still work.

Based on what I've gleaned, if you want to protect various items at home, I would build a larger cage that smaller cages would go inside of. For instance, get a galvanized trash can, spray the inside with bedliner to insulate the contents. Be careful not to spray where the lid contacts the can. Wrap your various small items individually in freezer bags covered with aluminum, repeated 2 or 3 times. I would put the whole individual items in another freezer bag before placing in the can. Since a lot of damage to small items seems to come from connection to what essentially is an "antenna", putting the whole thing in bags keeps the various items from having their exterior metal cages contacting each other, forming a larger electrical loop, which would catch much more of any emp energy that got through the can. I'd probably paint the outside with something, simply as more rust protection. If you're not opening it anytime soon, run a bead of sealant where the top meets the can, after it is placed, to keep moisture out, and it would glue the lid on somewhat.
Also, batteries were mentioned, as was LED lights. Batteries tested in the 60s were undamaged, but newer batteries have more sensitive components, so it is not known if they would also be damaged. LEDs would certainly be damaged if the emp energy ran the wrong way through the circuits, as their durability only runs in one direction. It is believed many would survive, as there just isn't enough circuitry to catch the emp.
If you are using off the grid electricity, but are still connected to the grid, you will still fall under the same probability of being taken out by emp, due to the connection to the long wiring of the grid. Generators use electronic starting and control circuits which are likely to be fried by emp, especially if hooked into the house system.

Like I said at the beginning, I'm not an expert, but this is much of what I have very recently picked up after research from reading/answering in this thread. I'm sure it is not all-inclusive. As I am pretty much passing it on, it may not be all right. However, it was written by a scientist who has studied emp and its effects for several decades.

ETA: During the automobile tests of the '60s, trucks were tested, including diesel trucks. Apparently trucks had the same results as the cars did.
Also, more recently, and even still, various automobiles are tested by manufacturers. But, they do not reveal which models are tested, how hard they are tested, or how well the vehicle fared.

[Gunfixr]

The only similarity between a geomagnetic storm and a nuclear generated emp is that the type of emp generated by the geomagnetic storm is the same as the 3rd type of emp generated by the nuclear event.
A solar storm will definitely damage the power grid. It will disrupt communications, but only for a short time, the radios themselves will not be damaged, but the magnetic storm will interrupt the signals for a short time.
A Faraday cage is useless against a solar storm, unless you are using it to protect a satellite you are launching.
A solar storm will not damage computers.
A solar storm would not damage automobiles. Lightning, which is classified as a form of emp, does.

Most of the suffering seen will be due to the power grid failure, and that pretty much everything relies on it. Once the power grid were to come back, the rest would be GTG.

The 1st type of emp from a nuclear event will damage all of the above.

The power grid would also fail, but once it was back, the rest would still be toast.

[Gunfixr]

The bomb in the Starfish Prime test was detonated 250mi. above Johnston Island, in the Mid-Pacific. The location was almost 900 miles from Hawaii, instead of the Nevada Test site. This actually worked out better, as the damage that Hawaii received can show, even from that distance. They were unable to gauge the emp levels, as they had underestimated emp and it way exceeded all of their instrument calibration.

It has been noted that if a similar bomb were dotonated directly over the US, the effects would be hugely magnified over what happened from the bomb over Johnston Island. This is because the power and effects of emp are directly related to the power of the earths magnetic field. The magnetic field over the US is much more powerful than it is over the Mid-Pacific, therefore, the emp effects would be much magnified over what was seen over the Mid-Pacific.
The radiation cloud in space destroyed 6 satellites, 5 of them US, one Soviet. One of those was Telstar1, belonging to the US, it was the world's first communications satellite. It passed several times through the radiation belt in its orbit, until it failed completely.
The blast flash could be seen through a densely overcast sky 1400 miles away.
In Hawaii, significant damage was done to both civilian and military electrical systems, but it's true reason was hidden from the public.
This bomb was equal to 1.44 megatons.

[Metrocruiser]

Holy cow!!!

Thank you for all this info. Your eyes must be end and sore :/

A great read!!!

[Gunfixr]

Well, I spent all but two of the 8 days my daughter was at CHKD with her. This was because my wife has Fibromyalgia, Crohn's, and Hypothyroidism. With all of this, she tires easily, and you must rest then, you cannot push on like most of us. Sitting in one spot isn;t good for her either. There's not much to do waiting with someone at a hospital, and anybody who's spent time in one knows you get no rest there. On top of that, she just came off 3 weeks out of work from her condition, and they wanted her to take a leave of absence to stay out with our daughter. My work load has been somewhat down lately. So, we wouldn't be bringing in any money, while having to send money to her work to keep the insurance we have going.
It was just easier and better all around for me to stay with her. Except for the "mommy needs to be with her child" part. My wife did go stay with her when she could, around work and resting enough to work.

In the hospital (a childrens hospital), the tv stations were a couple news stations and the rest kids stations. Nothing really I wanted to watch. There was wifi, signal kind of irregular, and weird limits on where you could go. I could come here, another site with the word "weapon" in the name, but not go cheaper than dirt, or midway usa, or brownells. I could go to warriortalk, but not silencertalk.
So, reading and posting all that really wasn't imposing.

[Metrocruiser]

Hi Gunfixr,
Prayers and good thoughts to you and your family.

[Gunfixr]

Got the call from the doc today, the biopsy results are back. She has Crohn's disease.

So this makes three. My wife has Crohn's, Fibromyalgia, and Hypothyroidism (her thyroid gland is dying), our son has Crohn's and Ulcerative Colitis, and our daughter has Crohn's.

[helomech]

So sorry to hear that.

[bacpacker]

Prayers on the way. Let us of anything else we can do.

[Metrocruiser]

Gunfixr, I am so sorry to hear your news. I pray that your situation changes for the better.

[ElevenBravo]

Gun, if you are running a Windoze laptop or netbook... look at a VPN, typically they can tunnel out of a network no problem, which bypasses any and all security. I personally recommend BoxPN, been with them for over a year.. $6 a month gives a good measure of security, plus access to whatever site you want from any network.

HTH,
EB

[Gunfixr]

Thanks to all for the good wishes.

Doesn't really matter now, we're all back home. Once again, I can go wherever I want.

[ElevenBravo]

Okay brother, PM me if there is anything I can do, or offer support.

EB

[Gunfixr]

Well, since our son was first to be diagnosed, almost 3 yrs ago now, and my wife was diagnosed last winter, we pretty much got it figured out.

Really, it just means that now I will probably be on the Crohns diet, since everybody else in the house has it. I will miss a few things, but the spicy stuff pisses off my Barretts disease anyway, so I really should do without that.

I cut out sodas almost 2 years ago when my wife had to, as her diet sodas were messing up some of her other levels, which put her in the hospital.
I have one every now and then, but mostly, I don't miss them.

[Metrocruiser]

Getting a fantastic deal on a 78 bronco. Found it on CL. Going to pick it up tomorrow. I hope it is as described :p

It has a 400. 4 speed. 4 inch lift. Cooper discoverer sst 35" tires. Stock 9" and d44.

http://pitbullcenter.com/bronco/camotruck2.jpg

[MegaCPC]

Nice find.

[helomech]

Getting a fantastic deal on a 78 bronco. Found it on CL. Going to pick it up tomorrow. I hope it is as described :p

It has a 400. 4 speed. 4 inch lift. Cooper discoverer sst 35" tires. Stock 9" and d44.

http://pitbullcenter.com/bronco/camotruck2.jpg

I love the bronco's.

They never did make a diesel version did they?

[Metrocruiser]

Thanks megaCPC.

Hey helo,
Yes, its too bad they didn't have that option back then. My dream 4x4 is still the diesel landcruiser but can't afford one right now.

How is your garden coming along now?

[helomech]

Thanks megaCPC.

Hey helo,
Yes, its too bad they didn't have that option back then. My dream 4x4 is still the diesel landcruiser but can't afford one right now.

How is your garden coming along now?

It is doing good right now. Lots of growth.

[Metrocruiser]

Hey shtfers,
Finally got the bronco through the provincial safety inspection and it passed. Going to be beefing up the front and rear axles to Dana 60s.

Any of you ppl offroad for recreation?
Me thinks many of you do it out of necessity.

Im planning to gear it up for bov and recreational camping in hard to get locations and practice some vehicle recovery and outdoor skills.

Planned Upgrades:
1. Dana 60 front and rear with arb locker in rear.
2. Removable warn XT9000i winch with 0 gauge trailer power outlets front and rear for hitch mount on rear and winch bumper on front. Jacks also work for giving and receiving a jump start.
3. 2000watt pure sine inverter.
4. 6 point roll cage.
5. Roof rack for roof top tent.
6. Rear bumper with swing out spare tire, hi lift jackall and jerry can mounts.
6. Rear inner fender wells will hold 4x
50cal ammo boxes on each side for bug out and medical supplies.

That's all I can think of for now.

Be safe in the cold y'all

[bacpacker]

Sounds like it's gonna be a fine rig Metro. Congrats

[Possom]

Sounds like you have it figured out. A quick suggestion about your winch front and back wiring connections. Use electric dryer plugs. My rock crawler has Reece hitch inserts front and back and a winch plate set up to fit. The quick change is the tricky part so I used electric dryer plug ins. Male end on the winch pigtail and female ends on each end of the truck wired to the battery. Works great.

[bacpacker]

Great idea Possum. Just another excellent thought from this site.

[Metrocruiser]

Hi Possum,

I hope you are making a good recovery from that snow storm.
Thanks for suggestion.

Ive been doing a lot of reading up on the winch power cables and this is what I think to be a good setup.
2 of these, one in front and one in back. (http://www.etrailer.com/Wiring/Pollak/PK11851.html)
2 of these, one on the winch power cable end and the other for a jumper cable. (http://www.etrailer.com/Wiring/Pollak/PK11852.html)

Going to get 35feet of 0 gauge welding cable for my battery to rear bumper run and the leftovers for the jumpers.

http://www.etrailer.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/pics/r/i/rid39441_r1_800.jpg

[Possom]

A single pin set up will work really well and looks a little cleaner then the dryer plug set up I use. However, the only possible drawback would be the pollak plugs amperage rating.

I am not sure on the amp pull of your specific winch but when they are put under a heavy load they pull crazy amounts of power. I would hate to melt a plug and be stuck without a winch. Then again I am bad about being a bit overkill on things such as this.

[Metrocruiser]

Overkill is never a bad thing.

I think it said 300amps continuous for those single pole male/female plugs.

[FL-Jeeper]

DC amp draw is a big concern on AC connections. Of larger concern would be load rating of the hitch connection. While a tow hitch is rated for towing weight, trailer towing exerts force differently than winching force. A 9k winch and a snatch block can push 18k lbs of lateral force. That's a lot on a 3/4" receiver pin.

[Metrocruiser]

DC amp draw is a big concern on AC connections. Of larger concern would be load rating of the hitch connection. While a tow hitch is rated for towing weight, trailer towing exerts force differently than winching force. A 9k winch and a snatch block can push 18k lbs of lateral force. That's a lot on a 3/4" receiver pin.

Hi FL-Jeeper,

Thanks for bringing this up, its a possible serious weakness in the chain of maxing out loads.
I'll have the winch front bumper mounted 99.9% of the time and only plan to use it on the rear to pull me back through my tracks in some mud type situations. I was reading up in some offroad and expedition sites about shear and tensile strength and the consensus was if the Class III hitch is well installed, the hitch fits snug and the hitch pin is grade 5+ it should all be ok. Thanks for prompting me to read up!!

After I get it all installed I will be going out to practice safe winching techniques.

What is the FL in your name short for?

[Grumpy Old Man]

Hi FL-Jeeper,


What is the FL in your name short for?

I'm guessin' Florida.

[FL-Jeeper]

I'm guessin' Florida.

Thanks for the bump Grump'. I missed this one...

Yes Metro, Florida.