Diesel Experts. . .Take 2!!!

[Stormfeather]

Ok, looking into a diesel, wanting to purchase an older one, but my knowledge in this area is limited to CUCV's & HMMV's mostly.
So what I am looking to find out, is what is the difference between a mechanical diesel, and a newer model diesel.
Also, which one is better?
Are there diesels out there that dont use any type of electronics?
Is there a better make/model/manufacturer that stands out?
Im assuming, that if I purchase a older vehicle to convert to diesel, its basically a engine swap correct?
Is there anything else I need to know?

The basic idea is Im wanting to purchase a Suburban style vehicle, add lift kit, push bumper, ect, and put a diesel engine in it. BUT the parameters are, I dont want any type of electronics in it at all. So, who has suggestions, comments?

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

OK I know you need to go mechanical, Brother-in-law (trucker), the smart one, said the Dodge cummings was a good one to get. I throw him a bone and see what i can find out.

[Possom]

Correct me if I am wrong but the mid 70s suburbans clear up to almost new came with the diesel as an option. In the 70s they were still running pretty much all mechanical.

Also any diesel with a little modification can be made to run all mechanical because they don't require a spark to fire. The only thing that would have to be changed I believe is the fuel delivery system to mechanical and the timing system. Might be economically ahead to buy one already built and convert to mechanical.

Such as this.

http://cars.yakaz.com/gmc-suburban-diesel-for-sale#lo=4&docid=0005jh23scrrvgrk

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Not getting any intell yet but let me speak. I'M A DIE HARD GM FAN! THAT'S ALL I HAVE IN THE DRIVEWAY! But their diesel "experiment" was a complete disaster! I don't care what anyone says the life expectancy was shit. The Suburban to me has always been the "war wagon" I've had two, love them, you can take in your team and bring out your wounded. Pack the family and go camping etc. Longest running history of that body class. But what to do about a reliable diesel in a solid body suburban, Hmmmmm? That becomes an issue in itself. Now it becomes a custom build. I'd love to take the 1 ton dually and slap a suburban body on top of that! But then there's the mileage of a 350 small block, turbo 400 tranny, 410 gears, Dana 60 up front, Dana 70HD in the rear and shit mileage, but that makes it a no go. But it will go where most anything can't. Wish in one hand, shit in the other. Might as well drag an ol' A1B fuel "mule" behind me. That would give me about an extra 600 gallons...........

[Stormfeather]

Thats exactly what Im talking about, Ive been looking at a Dually Suburban here locally, and wondering if it would be feasible to purchase and run as a diesel if converted. Would I need a fuel hauler as well?

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Well right now I have a 99 and it has a 40gl tank. 2 wheel drive. Not the greatest BOV but she's been a great vehicle. 217K miles. and I got with about 50K on it. I guess the questions are this, what year and body style, tank capacity, 2 or 4 wheel drive, gear ratio, trans and transfer case. I can give you "guesstimations" from there. But what motor I'll need to do research on. In other words....Roger, wait, out.....stand by for PM.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

OK I found a "swap" but they have MONEY but it will give you an idea of what it will take. A lot of these thing you don't have to do because they went pretty high end. But they will give you the "what it takes", as in where the cummins doesn't fit, where to make adjustment, etc. There's only 3 places and you said you were going to lift it a little anyway. Check out the second link for the areas that don't fit. Looks minor in my opinion, depends on your mechanical skill levels. (which I don't know) Looks like a cool project and just what you had in mind. I'm going to do some more reading I was just glancing the fine points.

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/chevy/1201dp_swapping_a_cummins_into_a_1973_to_1991_chev y_suburban/

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/chevy/1201dp_swapping_a_cummins_into_a_1973_to_1991_chev y_suburban/photo_12.html

[bacpacker]

Stormy I have never had one but desiel engines typically do better than gas burners for milage. My cousin has a ford dually he tow a 40' car hauler with. First truck was gas and had niether the ass to pull it and could not pass a gas station. Traded for a desiel truck and cured the power problem and greatly improved milage.

[MegaCPC]

Ok, looking into a diesel, wanting to purchase an older one, but my knowledge in this area is limited to CUCV's & HMMV's mostly.

So what I am looking to find out, is what is the difference between a mechanical diesel, and a newer model diesel.
Also, which one is better?
Newer models can be easily programmed to make tons of torque and power, but rely on computers to run. With a mechanical injection diesel, there is no computer, and the only electricity you would need to make it run is power for the starter. After it's running all it needs is air, fuel, and compression. There are pneumatic starter options out there, I think there was a thread here on alternative engine starting options.
Are there diesels out there that dont use any type of electronics?
I think the two most common engines would be the 6bt Cummins which came in Dodge trucks, and the 6.2 Detroit which was put in the CUCVs, some HMMWVs, and other GM trucks. The Cummins is the more powerful of the two. Keep in mind that there are some electronics on these "mechanical" engines, but they are not absolutely necessary.
Is there a better make/model/manufacturer that stands out?
This is usually a matter of personal preference.
Im assuming, that if I purchase a older vehicle to convert to diesel, its basically a engine swap correct?
Is there anything else I need to know?
Yes.
The basic idea is Im wanting to purchase a Suburban style vehicle, add lift kit, push bumper, ect, and put a diesel engine in it. BUT the parameters are, I dont want any type of electronics in it at all. So, who has suggestions, comments?
It's not just an engine swap. The entire fuel system would have to scrapped and changed to a diesel system. This includes the tank, lines, filtration, etc. If you're going with a non GM engine in a Suburban, you would have to get an adapter for whatever transmission you have, or swap out the trans altogether. This would also mean new motor and trans mounts, driveline, added crossmembers, etc.

Keep in mind that diesels are much heavier than their gas counterparts, so with the added weight of engine, bumper, and off road stuff, there's going to be a ton of weight on your front end. Most GM Suburbans came with a 10 bolt front end, which is less than ideal for any kind of abuse. So a 1 ton axle swap wouldn't be out of the question.

There a lot more to it than dropping in an engine, it would be a fun project and you would have a a pretty bullet proof vehicle.

Check out this build (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/chevy/853123-95-suburban-k2500-6bt-swap-pics.html). It's a 95 with a 6bt Cummins. Not completely computerless I don't think, but lots of good info and pics. He stayed with 3/4 ton IFS but I would still recommend going to a 1 ton solid front axle.

[ElevenBravo]

Ill chime in... Im not an expert, but Im not a noob either.. Been driving a diesel for over 5 years now, as a DAILY DRIVER... and, I researched the topic for 5 years before taking the dive... so, take all that with what you will.

My current setup is an '82 K5 civilian Blazer, with a 6.2L normally apserated (non turbo) Detroit Diesel engine, a 700R4 automatic overdrive transmission, a NP231 transfer case, GM 10 bolt axles front and rear, and 4:11 final gear ratios.

It didnt come stock with the gearing, $1,200 took it from 3.08 to 4:11, the pinion bearing went out and took teeth off the ring gear, which necessitated major repair... It sat for 6 months as I saved up the money to have front and rear re-geared, plus additional repairs on the damage to the rear.

In the SAME vehicle with a 350 4 barl. carbed gasoline engine, I can PROMISE single digit MPG... I know, because the last K5 in that year span was just that, and yielded that MPG... only it was gear high milage gears (3.08) to boot!

Gasoline engines will produce more horse power, but less torque... Diesel engines will generate more torque but less horsepower (AS A GENERAL RULE). Lets not get all sensitive about the new Duramax and Powerstrokes out today, Im talking about plain jane old school diesels as of this writing.

Horsepower equates to 0-60mph speeds being a LOT faster for the gas than the diesel, but torque equates to pulling a boat up the mountain and maintaining 55 mph. So, diesels may NOT jump off the line near as fast, but a gas cant haul as heavy a load. (IN GENERAL TERMS).

Since torque is responsible for MOVING the object, more so than HP, the diesel engine ends up yielding greater MPG than the gasoline.

My personal experience:

1980 K5 gasoline 5.7L 350 cid = average 10 mpg
1982 K5 diesel 6.2L 362 cid = average 22-26 mpg




Yeah, that much...

I can spend $30 a WEEK in fuel with the diesel, where I would EASILY be spending $75 a week in the same truck, with gas.




Understand so far?



Okay, converting an engine... DONT. Its not woth the work or the headache... unless, your made of money and have lots of leisure time.


Buy a "good" diesel and do what work you might need to the truck to make it solid. As a general rule (here we go with that shit again...), a GM 350 will yield about 150-200 thousand miles before needing a full rebuild. The same truck with a Detroit Diesel engine will yield about 350-500 thousand miles before needing a full rebuild. Were not talking about rear main seals, head gaskets or other assorted wear and tear items... were talking about a MOTOR REBUILD or REPLACEMENT.

I figure, my 1982 is at half life right now...



While were on the topic of GM vehicles... do NOT confuse the 6.2L diesel with the 5.7L diesel.

The 5.7L GM diesel, as was used in many Olds cars, was a bastard reman job of a gas engine converted to a diesel, it was a train wreck.

The 6.2L diesel used in GM vehicles was from the ground up, designed and built by Detroit Diesel, period.

Light reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_V8_engine


Later, the 6.5L engine was released, which sported turbo... but it was still not near as powerful... as TODAYS electronically controlled diesel engines.


The 6.2 and 6.5 engines both share many similarities, one being that it utilized the Stanadyne DB2 mechanical fuel pump/injector. This nifty device is GEAR driving off the cam the generate the very high pressure squirt, and also TIMING thee squirt to the desired cylendar.

On cold start, both engines will NEED the have the glow plugs ran for about 20 seconds summer, 30-40 seconds winter. The job of the glow plugs is to pre-heat the combustion chamber so the diesel fuel has a fighting chance of combusting under pressure. If the chamber is not pre heated, chances are... you wont get it started.

Once the engine is running, electricity is NOT NEEDED to keep running, there is NO electronics that make it run... its all mechanical, as so is the transmission (the GM 4L60 transmission is the electronically controlled equal to the mechanical 700R4). I can actually DISCONNECT the batteries and continue to run with no source of electricity.

Gasoline fuel needs a spark to ignite, even without electronic ignition (points & rotor), a high voltage spark is still needed to make the engine run, where as diesel fuel is a compression fuel, is is the high pressure force of the piston slamming the fuel & air mixture which makes it explode.

As a matter of fact, pour some diesel into a pie pan, and put a road flare to it... its gonna be about 5 minutes before it gets hot enough to burn, and even then... its not a flash.. but a gradual spread of flame. Do the same with a pie pan of gasoline... but make sure you setup the camcorder first, I wanna watch!



So, if you want to get away from electronic control of a diesel's ignition, you need to go old school mechanical pump & injector. (Sweet after the EMP, ay?)

The engines that come to mind are, but not limited to (do your own research):

6.2L
6.5L
4BT
6BT


I have more data to share, but this should be enough to get you started brother... Ill post more in this tread a day or two...

EB

- - - Updated - - -

Tease...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARvDAlrwu8

[ElevenBravo]

Quick update, my YT play list...


Adventures of the War Wagon (Only 2 videos, Ill be adding more, as I get the chance to get off road and record) :
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0E05A5A23B56A396

Project: Diesel Warrior, 24 videos (about 2 hours?) of video detailing the WORK I did on the war wagon:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFC32C8D342538549


Enjoy,
EB

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Well I'll definitely keep my mouth shut. I'm a small block man. You go EB you 're on a roll, damn good intell!

[ElevenBravo]

Thanks RR, Ive got about 4 times that info to post yet, but I want to think it through and put it up...

Plus, have some time to digest and address any questions after that initial post...


EB

[TroubleShooter]

Thoughts...
I have converted all ways...diesel to gas, gas to diesel....manual to electronic, electronic to manual.....

Life is easier when a donor truck is available.

As stated before , some early units will not start unless glowplugs or intake heater is working.....Know how to get around that problem.

Most early diesels will run on a waste oil mix, just strained thru t-shirt and added to diesel fuel...in the event shtf, disabled autos with oil in engine or hydraulic systems of equipment will provide you with fuel.

A diesel engine can be fogged with propane or injected into intake to extend mileage or in a out of fuel screw up....

Bio diesel or any other fuel mix ....recommend mixing when both fuels are above 45f.

Gasoline is a shtf way of preventing gelling and so-called octane boost to a weak diesel mix .

Rubbing alchol mixes with water and will allow the water toburn off and not freeze ....

The cummins is a good swapping engine but requires machine work for most applications.

The 6.2 and 6.5 are what they are but will work and has the most toys for aftermarket swaps.

6.5 pretty much will interchange anywhere a small block was, with minor headaches.

Just a few thoughts....

[ElevenBravo]

The 6.2 will swap with a tranny from a 350 or 305 also, both are 90 deg. bolt patterns. However the stall of the TC and some other minor things inside the 700R4 are slightly different... I think it may have to do with pressures and shift points, but Im not a tranny expert....

TS makes some good points!


EB

[TroubleShooter]

This info is from another forum, I used to frequent will have to see if it still exists...They always had good info..


The GM 6.2L and 6.5L diesel engines share the very same bellhousing configuration and bolt pattern with all Chevy and GMC V-8 gasoline engines.
The GM 6.2L and 6.5L diesel engines share the very same motor mount configuration with all Chevy and GMC V-8 gasoline engines.
The GM 6.2L and 6.5L diesel engines are about 200 or so lbs heavier than a gasoline 350 V-8. The bare longblock weighs just over 700 lbs.
The GM 6.2L and 6.5L diesel engines are dimensionally identical, and nearly every bolt-on component on either engine will interchange with the other.
A conversion from gas to diesel will require a hydraulic brake booster, diesel starter, larger diesel radiator, all engine driven accessory brackets, and fan assemblies. Your A/C compressor and power steering pump might work with the correct diesel brackets.
The automatic transmission torque converter should be changed to one rated for diesel operation. The stall rpm of a gas converter will be above the 1700-2000 rpm torque peak of the diesel. We suggest modifying the transmission governor setting to upshift at an rpm below the engine's governed rpm of 3300-3600 (if non-electronic transmission). An overdrive transmission is recommended. Low gearing, no overdrive and higher freeway speeds make the diesel engine hard to live with. Best fuel economy is possible when running the engine at about 1800-2000 rpm at your chosen cruise speed.
For anyone considering a swap, I'd recommend buying a diesel donor vehicle, swap all the parts in both directions, then sell the donor. This will result in the best and least expensive conversion. Buying all the diesel-related components usually puts the cost out of reach for most people. Older diesel trucks and Suburbans with body or other cosmetic problems are usually pretty affordable.

[cwconnertx]

Converting a modern electronic diesel to mechanical is a no go, unless you have tons of money and a specialized application that demands it. That said for 4-5k you can take a cummins 24valve from electronic to mechanical and have a beast with the higher flowing 24 valve head and the fueling capability of the inline p-pump, its a great setup for a tractor pull truck, but the conversion cost is higher than the cost to buy the 12 valve engine in many cases.

The only decent mechanical diesel for power and longevity in a truck is the cummins in my opinion. The pre-electronic powerstrokes were durable, but lack the power that the cummins can deliver. The detroit (GM) diesels were never designed for heavy duty, they are great economy engines, think something like a V6 in a truck, but with even better mileage. They perform more like a light duty gasoline engine with better economy than a heavy duty diesel, but can't be beat for economy, with slight mods they can be quite reliable as well.

just get a pre-1998.5 dodge with the 12 valve cummins and motor happily along.

[TroubleShooter]

Converting a modern electronic diesel to mechanical is a no go, unless you have tons of money and a specialized application that demands it. That said for 4-5k you can take a cummins 24valve from electronic to mechanical and have a beast with the higher flowing 24 valve head and the fueling capability of the inline p-pump, its a great setup for a tractor pull truck, but the conversion cost is higher than the cost to buy the 12 valve engine in many cases.

The only decent mechanical diesel for power and longevity in a truck is the cummins in my opinion. The pre-electronic powerstrokes were durable, but lack the power that the cummins can deliver. The detroit (GM) diesels were never designed for heavy duty, they are great economy engines, think something like a V6 in a truck, but with even better mileage. They perform more like a light duty gasoline engine with better economy than a heavy duty diesel, but can't be beat for economy, with slight mods they can be quite reliable as well.

just get a pre-1998.5 dodge with the 12 valve cummins and motor happily along.
I guess for clarity we need to be more specific for the newbies in diesel. One when I say convert from one to the other....I am swapping complete engines, I am not attempting to take an elctronic engine and make it a manual pump....As CW pointed out , a newer electronic converted over to manual is next to impossible...I guess we should use the term...RePower instead of convert.

[Gunfixr]

I drove diesels in the "old days" I guess. Got my Ford F250 with the 6.9L International Harvester engine in the late 80s.
Fully mechanical, only thing electric was the starter, and there was a solenoid switch for fuel on the injector pump, but that can be got around. A panel on the side can be removed allowing the line pressure to be turned up a bit, giving a good power boost. Just don't go too far.
It ran a vacuum pump, so all of the vehicle's various accessories that run on vacuum are standard, like the brake booster. Bolted right to the C6 transmission, or to a manual.
The Gm diesels of that day were the 5.7L, which is a converted 350 gasoline engine. Avoid that engine like the plague. Every once in awhile one runs forever, and the rest are used to keep it running.

Suburbans have always had a diesel option. I have a friend who had one he set up to run cooking oil in. Had 2 fuel systems with a switch, since it won't start on cooking oil.

I would be cautious of adding gasoline to diesel. It lacks any lubrication qualities, and will shorten the life of your injector pump. You would have to add oil to make up for it. You could, in theory, drain a car of oil and gas to make a mix to run a diesel, but if you don't add enough oil, you'll kill the injector pump. You'd also have to filter the used oil rather well, for the same reason. Mechanical injector pumps are very close tolerance hydraulic type pumps. Lack of lubrication, or trash will shorten life considerably.

[ElevenBravo]

Fixr is right on target, with every word!

EB