lighting/power idea brainstorm

[jamesneuen]

Bear with me please, this will be a little long.

In the interest of preparing for a SHTF scenario I am looking to buy property in the northern part of the US. For the purposes of this discussion lets say Idaho, next to the Canadian border. To ensure that I have everything I will need to on the property before i buy it as far as access/natural resources I am attempting to set up as in depth of a complete living plan prior to committing anything beyond a few months of researching. So far the major snag I have hit is this;

Power/lighting solutions,
When SHTF I would like to be prepared for the instance that power will never come back to the grid. For this eventuality I will have a superinsulated house equipped with a rocket stove for heating during winter, an ice house for storing game and supplies during the short summers, and plenty of underground storage for supplies in various places.

The one thing that I am missing is power or some sort of lighting. All of the renewable energy sources out there are flawed in that they tend to rely on one thing that is destined to fail eventually; batteries. I have yet to see a system that doesn't use them to some extent that they wouldn't be crippled when the battery stops working. Even using RE the only viable options I would really have is either water or wind power due to the lack of light during long winter months and each of those would present their own issues. (lack of wind, -0 temps)

Looking into rudimentary lighting the only option I could find would be to continually render fat from animals I kill (time consuming) or establish a bee colony and use their wax to create candles.

The bees are what I am leaning more towards right now due to the added benefits of having the colony nearby as well.(food, medicinal) The only issue is the speed at which they would produce the wax and the lack of efficient light from normal tapers made from wax.

Lighting is a main concern due to how soon the sun goes down in the more northern reaches. Without some form of lighting in the house we would be cut down to only being able to operate from 9am-5pm maximum. I don't expect it to be crazy bright but was hoping for a long term option that would be sustainable indefinitely.

[Sniper-T]

Obviously, this is a concern for myself as well... so I stock up heavily on candles and rechargeable batteries (think of the little solar lights that people put along their driveway.) I also have crank lights, and moulds and wicks for making candles. If you plan on killing animals to eat, then it is a no brainer to render the fat. Shoot a nice chubby fall bear and you'll have enough fat to last for several years.
A wood stove with a glass door also throws a good amount of light (enough to read). Other options are storing propane and kerosine. They both store indefinately, and both have lights available for them.

Oh, and welcome to the forum... that's a great first post!

[ElevenBravo]

Solar panels, deep cycle batteries and LED lights come to mind rather quick, but thats on the technology side.

Plenty of propane and propane Coleman lanterns are a good idea.

However, and box full of wicks and several hurricane lanterns with lots of kerosene or lamp oil (liquid parafin, same same) would also be a good idea.


The best and easiest idea is from waaaay back in time, go to bed when its dark and get up when its light.

Im sure others will chime in with there own ideas...
EB

[jamesneuen]

I appreciate the quick responses and thank you Sniper-T. I have done a lot of digging into this, almost exhaustively so it seems.

This is part of the issue I have been having. Most of your responses seem like short term solutions to a long term problem. I am thinking in terms of more than 10-15 years, having the same solution work and don't want to devote that much space to a consumable if I can find an alternative that I can make as I go. Especially in the interest of moving to a different place if needed.

Am I just completely overestimating how much I will most likely consume with the candles and oil? A 200lb black bear usually only gains about 30-50lbs for hibernation. Quadrupling that to account for a much larger bear in the 800lb range still would net me only 200lbs of pure fat. Then rendering out the tissue, impurities, and processing it I could only see 100lbs max realistically. So 12-13 gallons? I think I would eradicate the local bear population at that rate but I haven't used lanterns as my main source of lighting so I have nothing to base a consumption off of.

As for the fireplace idea, it had occurred to me to have one with glass on all sides to serve as a light source but I would then have to figure out a way to tie it into the existing flue of the RMH so as to minimize the amount of heat loss from putting too many holes through the insulation of the house. Plus the original intent of the RMH and insulated house was so I could get by on VERY little wood.

ElevenBravo: I am trying to not look at anything technological as it breaks down eventually. I am hoping for a permanent solution so I don't have to hope that eventually the grid comes back.

I am uncomfortable with the idea of a compressed gas in a superinsulated house as the entire premise is that it is supposedly almost airtight and back again to devoting a large space to a consumable. I have used propane as a dedicated source of lighting before during camping and can go through a 30lb cylinder in about a week under normal (non-stingy) operation.

I would adhere to going to bed at dark and getting up at light but I have lived in the north and know we don't get much daylight during the winter at all. Being completely self sufficient I will always have more work to get done than I know what to do with. Time in the house with the lantern each evening can be spent making clothes, doing repairs, spending time with family that would otherwise be busy during the day with their own assigned tasks. Or in the best scenario, needing light to clean and process the day's kill. My concern mostly is providing a light for the person standing guard each night. So they can see and respond to any threats but also because in a darkened environment our body's natural tendency is to relax and begin the process of shutting down for sleep.

I'm not trying to poke holes in anybody else's plans!! I am just hoping to come up with a solution that I can go to bed comfortable with each night knowing that I can use it if I need to and never worry about not having it anymore.

[Sniper-T]

ok. personally, I think that you are overthinking things. If you look at my info.. You will see that I am actually in Canada, and in the coldest darkest portion thereof.

Think about it... you can buy a 50 pack of tealight candles for 3-4 bucks. they last for up to 6 hours each. think how many you could store in a 45 gallon barrel... I can guarantee you, I have read, played cards, and just sat around shooting the shit under the light of a single tealight.

we have a cheap shit version of this in my Northern remote cabin, and I have laid on the floorin front of it for days, reading books, just by it's cast off light.

In the end... when I head up north for my hunting trips *check the "I am outta here" thread... I live the cut off, no supplies lifestyle on a recreational basis, regularly.... it really isn't that tough... once you are established, dark does dictate your life. it has happened for millennia. go to sleep when it is dark, and get busy when it isn't.

If I dare say, you are overthinking this... Basics, dude, basics! Water, shelter, food. Deal with comfort as needed. short term survival is all you need to think about... cause if you can last 2 years,,, then you WILL last ten. you got the skills.

I don't know the wildlife situation in the area you are proposing, but even with your example 100lbs of fat will last a long time... and then add in the other animals.

Seriously. If you think for a second, that you can or think you want to live in my North... I welcome you...

[helomech]

My next property will have a flowing spring on the property. With that I will get a water wheel and have the ability to power almost anything I want.

[jamesneuen]

Sniper-T,
I would gladly live further north than I can get in the US. That would be a major learning curve for me though just to get used to THAT extreme of temps. I lived in Sault Sainte Marie, MI for 3 years and it wasn't really cold so much as just windy. I guess I will just have to try out some things and see exactly how they work out to make sure I'm not blowing things out of proportion. As you are a canadian though I have a few questions if you don't mind.

First, how strict are your gun laws? I have heard they are notoriously difficult but have no eperience, could you give me a little bit of background as a hunter/sportsman?

Second, I saw your hunting photos and kudos to you but do you still call them canadian geese or just "our geese"?

Helomech,
I had thought about that but I was concerned about the alternator/power converter wearing out and about the cold temperature causing constant ice buildup and equipment damage.

[robsdak]

i am with Sniper-T, dude you way over thinking this. you need to figure out what your prepping for? everybody has a different answer. me, hurricanes, some idiot hitting a light pole and leaving us for 13 1/2 hrs without power.(happened 2 weeks ago) zombies. :) the point is, you can not be prepared for everything. also know that pieces and parts wear out or break down, part of life, plan accordingly.


as for bees wax as a source of light. better be in the business of beekeeping. like 10+ hives. for any quantity at one time. i have a small colony/hive. not worth messing with. on the upside, i am able to do about 6 gal. of honey a year.


edit.... if this comes off as rude, not meant to be. posting while tired is dangerous. :)

[jamesneuen]

robsdak,
No offense taken in the slightest. I am mostly looking at a general loss of power and consumables for whatever reason. Exponential rise in fossil fuel cost, war/invasion, emp, or any of the other million things that could go wrong and make our fragile little world fall apart.

I think I will look into the fat rendering a bit more, and I also was looking into the Russian bees. I know they dont produce as much honey but apparently they are very cold hardy and produce lots of wax. More research is needed on that though.

Also, love the Firefly quote. "Everybody wants to be a gorram hero, don't they?"

[Sniper-T]

We have three classifications of firearms...
1. non-restricted: hunting rifles.
2. Restricted: handguns and some 'black' type rifles.
3. Prohibited: short barreled handguns, auto rifles, some 'black' type rifles.

If you want to hunt, you need to take a 'hunter safety' course. anyone over the age of 12 can take it nd be able to buy a hunting licence for any game animal.

If you want to own guns, you have to take a PAL course (Possession/acquisition Licence) and pass a background check. This is a one time affair, and once you have it you can buy a non-restricted gun from any store or anyone, whenever you want. No red tape. To buy a restricted, it has to be called in to a federal regulatory office, and then to a provincial one(state). Generally, the process takes 10 minutes, and I can walk out the door with any handgun I want.
Prohibited... are prohibited. Only those grandfathered into this class can purchase or even own one.

Here we call it 'Chinese food', in China, they call it 'food'... We just call them 'geese'. or to distinguish them, they could be 'snow', 'blue', 'brants'... but the true Canadian goose... is just a goose. Same as an eagle is just an eagle, not an 'American bald Eagle' .

I'm going to my buddy's cabin next weekend, to build onto his deck and do some hunting/fishing. propane lights/fridge/stove. With generous use of all three, 2-100lb propane tanks last for a year. if one was thrifty, and only using lights as needed, it would last much longer.

He also has a solar set up for running lights, etc. the batteries are inside, and a bank of 10-6 volt last 8+ years... but being remote, they are used only occasionally in the winter and trickle charge only as long as the panels are not covered with snow. Otherwise they freeze solid until spring.

a 200 lb bear is a two year old, and around here, common place. I try to shoot a 4-5 year old each year for food, and they are typically in the 400lb range. It is not uncommon to get an old boar in the 6-800 pound range, if you try.

[helomech]

Sniper-T,


Helomech,
I had thought about that but I was concerned about the alternator/power converter wearing out and about the cold temperature causing constant ice buildup and equipment damage.

The alternator in my truck is going on 25 years old. I don't think that would be too much of a concern, and if it is buy a spare. Between the two they should outlast you. Besides you can make an alternator, just buy some magnets and look the plans up online. Also the water wheel can be used for much more than powering an alternator. You can run almost anything off it. You can run a compressor, mill, heck anything that spins.

[robsdak]

robsdak,
No offense taken in the slightest. I am mostly looking at a general loss of power and consumables for whatever reason. Exponential rise in fossil fuel cost, war/invasion, emp, or any of the other million things that could go wrong and make our fragile little world fall apart.

I think I will look into the fat rendering a bit more, and I also was looking into the Russian bees. I know they dont produce as much honey but apparently they are very cold hardy and produce lots of wax. More research is needed on that though.

Also, love the Firefly quote. "Everybody wants to be a gorram hero, don't they?"

that's where i was heading earlier. just pick 1 event and plan accordingly. reason being, whatever happens the preps are going to over lap. don't just limit yourself. unless your wealthy or have access to a printing press, prepping is a slow and steady race not a sprint. we 'all' (meaning us here) have different ideas of of how too approach prepping, but it's all works out in the end. ok, blanket statement. for instance, take me. i live in the south, winters are fair to mild, summer sucks. hotter than 2 hells at times. my focus is with security, food/water and shelter. if it's a non-event, say power outage for extended period, i am good. i have water and fuel stored, garden,can said garden and in a fairly safe area. not saying i couldn't do more, i do everyday an little at a time.

i don't know what area your in, but the Italians do well everywhere. i think. that's what i have and the are a very docile bee and produce a fair amount of honey. the Russians can be mean and protective. i work mine without protection alot of the time. just a smoker and a hive tool. ***not that i condone this activity for others, just what i do and comfortable with*** i do wear a bee jacket/protection when working with hives other than mine.

yeah, i miss that show. yes,yes they do. :)


The alternator in my truck is going on 25 years old. I don't think that would be too much of a concern, and if it is buy a spare. Between the two they should outlast you. Besides you can make an alternator, just buy some magnets and look the plans up online. Also the water wheel can be used for much more than powering an alternator. You can run almost anything off it. You can run a compressor, mill, heck anything that spins.

helomech, this is where i was going with that. water power is easy to do and maintain. can be used for AC/DC just depending on the system built. spare parts are as close as the next abandoned truck, bicycle,etc.

[jamesneuen]

Could I run a water based system without the use of batteries? I'm not sure how a generator does it. Spin at a high enough speed to generate the needed power and disengage it when I don't need it but what happens when there is too much power supplied? (I am not electrically inclined in any way whatsoever)

[helomech]

Yes you can. The generator unit will spin up, but will not have much resistance till a load is applied. That is why a generator bogs down when you put a big load on it. So it can spin with no issues if there is no load. It will still be producing voltage, but not much amperage.

[jamesneuen]

Sounds like I need to snag an alternator or 2 from a scrap yard, get a cheap inverter and just play with it to see what I can do.

[helomech]

There are lots of plans on line, you can look up wind generators, they are the same principle. What works with a wind generator will work with a water wheel. Alternator will get you 12 or 24 volts DC depending on the model. A generator head will get you 125/240 volt AC, but will be more sensitive to RPM. There are ways to make a water wheel that spins at the proper RPM.

[robsdak]

Could I run a water based system without the use of batteries? I'm not sure how a generator does it. Spin at a high enough speed to generate the needed power and disengage it when I don't need it but what happens when there is too much power supplied? (I am not electrically inclined in any way whatsoever)

just a question. why no battery storage? easier than trying to do an on demand system. alternator hooked to a water wheel via say 10 speed bicycle wheel, then easy enough to control speed.


Sounds like I need to snag an alternator or 2 from a scrap yard, get a cheap inverter and just play with it to see what I can do.

sounds like a plan. like helo said, youtube, google it. plans are out there, you just need too look.

[helomech]

alternator hooked to a water wheel via say 10 speed bicycle wheel, then easy enough to control speed.



Easier way is with a water chute from a constant source pond. You can divert enough water so that the wheel spins at the proper speed. I would go with batteries if it was my system, much less loading and unloading of the power.

[jamesneuen]

Just looking at the longevity of the batteries without dropping a ton of money into the industrial style ones. I will be using batteries most likely but don't want to rely on them as a long term solution.

I like the idea of the water wheel coming from a dedicated source. Especially since a moving source of water is one of the requirements I have for the property I buy.

[helomech]

Batteries will last a very long time, IF you don't run them down. If they are always kept fully charged, and only act as a buffer than they should last a very long time. And when they do fail, then your system would run just like you wanted in the first place. It will just be harder to get the voltage to stay in the correct range if doing A/C voltage. D/C is not critical, because the alternator always puts out the same voltage (withing its operating range) just the amps vary.

[robsdak]

Easier way is with a water chute from a constant source pond. You can divert enough water so that the wheel spins at the proper speed. I would go with batteries if it was my system, much less loading and unloading of the power.

that makes sense. i was just thinking for my area, you can go to sleep and wake up to a storm that has flooded everything in a very short time. my thinking would be more like a (say) 2" PVC and then gear accordingly? then i am not having to deal with flood waters taking it away. i hope this makes sense, because it sure does in my head. :)


Just looking at the longevity of the batteries without dropping a ton of money into the industrial style ones. I will be using batteries most likely but don't want to rely on them as a long term solution.

I like the idea of the water wheel coming from a dedicated source. Especially since a moving source of water is one of the requirements I have for the property I buy.

i hear you on dropping a ton of money, again, start small and work into it. build a small 'prototype' to play with and see how it goes. used batteries are fairly cheap. besides with the newer types of battery technology out there, they last longer. i was an electrician for years, anything i can help with. just ask.

[jamesneuen]

I think I will have to do a bit more research on how generators and such run without using batteries before I start fooling with all this. Just wary of using something I see as having a limited lifespan. Even buying a good battery I have to replace my truck batteries every 5 years. Though I imagine that just running a few LED's would be FAR less load than cranking an 8cyl engine.

[helomech]

that makes sense. i was just thinking for my area, you can go to sleep and wake up to a storm that has flooded everything in a very short time. my thinking would be more like a (say) 2" PVC and then gear accordingly? then i am not having to deal with flood waters taking it away. i hope this makes sense, because it sure does in my head. :)

.

I would dig a pond and catch water from the stream. From this pond I would have a water drop to my water wheel. Streams and rivers are not constant enough for what I want.

[jamesneuen]

I guess it would depend on the size of the stream in my mind but your idea sounds better. Could even stock it with some fishes for more food.

[helomech]

Yeah, you want the river to keep the pond full and overflowing all the time. With this constant source you can divert the exact amount of water you want onto your wheel. I hope one day I can find a place with a flowing spring to use for this, that way I don't have to worry about upstream contaminants.

[jamesneuen]

Helomech, I have heard of people capping springs to have a closed system. If you were short on land to make a pond or would be worried about it overflowing and flooding a critical area I would look at that. Sound like it would be nice.

[helomech]

Just have to divert the water where you want it to go. I have some springs on my property, but they don't really flow (just keep the ground wet), and they come and go.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

The pelton water wheel is the most efficient that there is that I have found. coupled to an alternator, then dial in the speed using the water control valve. One of the other things I noticed that no one brought up was the use of calcium carbide lamps????? Miners lamps, hello? They have been around for years, I have a couple of them. But I have yet to use them both are restored and ready for use i just haven't went out and got the materials....uh water and calcium carbide. I know the Mennonites and the Amish use them so I'll have to go and tap them and see what i can see. Just a thought......

[jamesneuen]

Dear god those miners lamps are a scary concept. No idea how they could safely use those in a mine. Most amish I knew growing up just used oil and hurricane lamps or Coleman lamps.

Helomech, is there any way you could get someone to drill on your property as if for a well and see if it has natural pressure to it?

[helomech]

I have two wells on my property, but neither has pressure. My pond has some natural springs in it, but the flow is very little.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Dear god those miners lamps are a scary concept. No idea how they could safely use those in a mine. Most amish I knew growing up just used oil and hurricane lamps or Coleman lamps.

Helomech, is there any way you could get someone to drill on your property as if for a well and see if it has natural pressure to it?

Where's your sense of adventure MAN? Shees.........kids these days. I wonder how they made it through those days working in the mines, having them on cars, hell they used them all over the place, but hey you asked so I'm just trying to throw some possible suggestions out there. Now if you throw it into a room fill with propane gas you got yourself some real excitement!

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

I have two wells on my property, but neither has pressure. My pond has some natural springs in it, but the flow is very little.

On that note with the way your ponds are I have a few questions. Being spring fed, do you have a way of tapping and draining the pond, as using a pipe with a valve? If so by tapping that pipe at the deepest point possible in the pond(more pressure) you can use this as your water source to spin your water wheel to produce electricity. By using both ponds you can alternate from one to the other and not over utilize the water source.....That is provided the spring flow is substantial. Same principal as a hydroelectric dam only on a smaller scale.

[helomech]

Spring does not have enough flow. It keeps up with evaporation, but not much more. If it has a flow I would already have a wheel set up.

[Brownwater Riverrat 13]

Spring does not have enough flow. It keeps up with evaporation, but not much more. If it has a flow I would already have a wheel set up.

Well, it was just a thought, this is what we are/were going to do out at our other property. We have four originating spring fed creeks that produce all years round. Two of which I was planning on using for ponds and tapping for hydro, great flow, If I didn't tap them they would have to have a spillway.

[helomech]

I wish I had that. It is the only thing I regret about this property.