ghost gun

[eagle326]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/xwRtll3jjU4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hope I did this right. Here's a new product that could come in very handy.

Eagle

[helomech]

Can't see it.

[Sniper-T]

TRY THIS...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwRtll3jjU4

[eagle326]

Thanks Sniper. I'm not very good with computers. :o

[ElevenBravo]

"My job is to keep people from taking this (shows stripped lower off CNC) and making it into this (shows finished AR with no serial lower)"

Good luck with that!

But as a side note, if you were to take a stripped lower, and build a finished rifle... what exactly are the legalities to this?

Do you have to apply for a serial number???

Curious..
EB

[jamesneuen]

EB in the US no. so long as yiou make it for yourself with no intent to sell it.

[ElevenBravo]

What if I give it away?

[Sniper-T]

we are currently looking at buying a couple of these printers... large scale... being that we are a European owned co.... it is a huge ordeal

given the draftingéengineering support, IF we get one, I could print off a tank!

cross your fingers for me

pow!

[jamesneuen]

EB, I'm not sure where it is that I read it so I can't really quote it but I looked into the ATF guidelines awhile ago because I was interested in milling my own to build guns off of. It says that an individual can build an unserialised weapon so long as it does not fall into one of the restricted categories. Full auto, SBR, that kind of stuff. It was meant for personal use only and could not be transferred to another individual as a working firearm.

Helping someone build their own though is a different matter.

However, I don't get what the big deal is about serialised weapons. I keep records on all private transactions I do just so I can prove I don't do enough business to be called a business in case ATF comes knocking. Most other people don't bother to do that though. They might get a bill of sale but they usually don't care. I have professional paperwork on every transaction I have done in the last 5 years.

Once a weapon is bought from a dealer in the US, it disappears unless it is transferred back into the system. If, for example, a firearm is used in a violent crime and the police have nothing else to go on they can ask the surrounding shops and check the NAC database to see who originally bought it and when or if it was stolen. If the original owner is someone who could not have been involved and has no solid record or information about who bought it they can do nothing.

If mandatory weapons turn-ins happen it won't be like the happy go lucky california turn-in. "Bring in your guns and get a giftcard!!" It will be a massive armed force going door to door and removing weapons by FORCE from every law abiding citizen. National guard will be used as security while special task forces are setup that have no ties to the local community. It will instantly become a communist regime because that is the only way it would ever be successful. Neighbors would be given leeway or incentives to turn on everyone and there are just enough people that think it would work and improve our society, that they would be stupidly successful in their efforts.

[Gunfixr]

That was mildly entertaining. Drill press? He doesn't know the difference between a drill press and a cnc mill. 30 caliber clip? Too stupid to even laugh at.
Stop it? Yeah, you have fun with that.

OK, first, you can make any firearm you wish that is not an nfa firearm. You can make your own nfa firearm, except machine guns, if you have an approved form 1 prior to starting the parts of your build that would make it an nfa firearm.
If it is not an nfa firearm, it does not legally have to have any markings on it whatsoever. Nfa firearms must have the proper markings and a serial number. Atf would prefer you put a serial number on it if you sell it, so it would be easier to track, but it is not legally required.
Yes, you can sell it or give it away, but it must be done with the same requirements as transferring a regular factory gun. Cannot sell it to minors, felons, etc.
You can make as many as you want.
You should not make and immediately get rid of guns, or make lots and get rid of them all. The reason is that you can be charged with manufacturing without a license, and it is a subjective thing. This means that if the judge believes their lawyer more than yours, you lose.

[Gunfixr]

Oh, if anybody is working on guns for other people, and taking pay, they are required by federal law to have an ffl.
I am not a rat, and I care little what people do, I am just making it known what the law says.
Getting on the Internet and saying things about fixing people's guns and not having an ffl is an invitation to club fed.

[jamesneuen]

Well put!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Gunfixr]

If you buy a stripped lower and assemble a weapon, you really haven't done anything to notice. It already has a serial number, and when you purchased it, if it came from a dealer, you had to fill out paperwork.
If, however, you are buying stripped lowers in quantity, assembling them and selling the finished products, that is considered manufacturing by the batfe.
While we are right here, when you buy an Ar lower, it is neither a rifle or pistol, irregardless of whether it has a stock on it.
What matters is whether it left the factory with both a stock and barrel of 16" or over on it. Only the stock does not make it a rifle.
When the paperwork is filled out, it matters not whether it is listed as a rifle or pistol. There is in fact a place on the form 4473 for receiver.
What you build with it is up to you. You can remove the stock, install a pistol buffer tube and build a pistol.
While it is legal to change a pistol into a rifle, and then go back again, it is not legal to turn a rifle into a pistol.

[jamesneuen]

In clarification in case you are talking to me I do have my private FFL for gunsmithing. I appreciate the word of caution though. I got my own to avoid the hassle of dealing with a shop that was 30 minute drive away and being on their "payroll" However, I have had it taken away at the end of every year to be reapplied for because I didn't do enough to be considered a business. Not sure how they make the distinction but I just keep applying for it every year to be safe.

[helomech]

That was mildly entertaining. Drill press? He doesn't know the difference between a drill press and a cnc mill. 30 caliber clip? Too stupid to even laugh at.
Stop it? Yeah, you have fun with that.
.

You can build a 80% lower with a drill press.

[Sniper-T]

you wanna know what you can do with a few simple tools and some time... check this shit out!!!

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!

bandwidth warning!

[Gunfixr]

Yes, you can do one with a drill press. My point was that in the video, the guy says this almost complete receiver, and a drill press. The video clip shows the incomplete receiver, and the cnc machine, not a drill press.

[Gunfixr]

"Private ffl"? You either have one or not. The only differences are the types, which dictate what kind of business you engage in. There is not a gunsmithing specific one, a standard type 01 or 02 suffices, unless manufacturing is done.
"Taken away"? Atf only takes away for violations, and it won't be very many times before it won't be granted anymore. They don't care how much business you do. The only business amount regulations concerns the sot, and how much it costs based on yearly business.
Usually, home ffls are not granted, as a "storefront" is usually required. However, if you can get a local business license from your city/county, they will usually grant it.
The ffl usually is good for 3 yrs.
Unless of course, you're going to tell me they just redid the entire thing in the last couple years.

[Gunfixr]

You also mention keeping good records to show you don't do enough business to be called a business in case atf comes knocking.
What??
Those records would be what nailed the case shut for atf.
Look, like I said, I personally could care less. I think the vast majority of gun laws are bs. I worked out of my garage for many years before I went legit. I was just trying to save you some grief. But I can stop, it's not my freedom on the line here.

[Stormfeather]

EB, I'm not sure where it is that I read it so I can't really quote it but I looked into the ATF guidelines awhile ago because I was interested in milling my own to build guns off of. It says that an individual can build an unserialised weapon so long as it does not fall into one of the restricted categories. Full auto, SBR, that kind of stuff. It was meant for personal use only and could not be transferred to another individual as a working firearm.

Helping someone build their own though is a different matter.

However, I don't get what the big deal is about serialised weapons. I keep records on all private transactions I do just so I can prove I don't do enough business to be called a business in case ATF comes knocking. Most other people don't bother to do that though. They might get a bill of sale but they usually don't care. I have professional paperwork on every transaction I have done in the last 5 years.

Once a weapon is bought from a dealer in the US, it disappears unless it is transferred back into the system. If, for example, a firearm is used in a violent crime and the police have nothing else to go on they can ask the surrounding shops and check the NAC database to see who originally bought it and when or if it was stolen. If the original owner is someone who could not have been involved and has no solid record or information about who bought it they can do nothing.

If mandatory weapons turn-ins happen it won't be like the happy go lucky california turn-in. "Bring in your guns and get a giftcard!!" It will be a massive armed force going door to door and removing weapons by FORCE from every law abiding citizen. National guard will be used as security while special task forces are setup that have no ties to the local community. It will instantly become a communist regime because that is the only way it would ever be successful. Neighbors would be given leeway or incentives to turn on everyone and there are just enough people that think it would work and improve our society, that they would be stupidly successful in their efforts.

Just wanted to point out one problem, do you actually think that the NG in any state of the union, is going to stand by and abide by this while this so called confiscation happens? Dont hold your breath, Believe me when I say, the NG are even more vehemently aware of state rights over active duty troops. The last thing any NG troop will do is walk his streets during a confiscation, they learned that lesson in Katrina. Ive had this conversation over and over with NG troops and trust me when I say, I do feel sorry for anyone who tries to do it.

[jamesneuen]

did they change their tasking after Katrina? and i have no idea how the majority of current military members would react. i know quite a few at my current unit that are all for gun removal from civilians. (we don't get along well)

[eagle326]

Just wanted to point out one problem, do you actually think that the NG in any state of the union, is going to stand by and abide by this while this so called confiscation happens? Dont hold your breath, Believe me when I say, the NG are even more vehemently aware of state rights over active duty troops. The last thing any NG troop will do is walk his streets during a confiscation, they learned that lesson in Katrina. Ive had this conversation over and over with NG troops and trust me when I say, I do feel sorry for anyone who tries to do it.

I would like to expand upon Stormy's post a little more.

N. G. posting security for outside force to confiscate weapons from populace who happen to be family & friends more than likely. This sets up a situation where the outside force knows no one citizen and does their job come hell or high water.

1- Here-in lies the problem as I see it.If you're N.G. ; Are you going to let strangers do whatever to complete their mission even if they harm or kill your family or friends in order to violate the 2nd. amendment?

1-A - Trust me this will be in every man's mind and yes some will follow blindly ; but as Stormy said and I concur that most will choose the opposite of government mandates.


2- If you're the outside force won't you be wondering what the other outside forces are doing in your community?
2- A - If you don't ; then you're the problem.

3- Have you given consideration as to the number of ex military who take their oath seriously to the point of death to protect the people of this country & the 2nd. amendment along with the rest ?

3-A- This fact alone should tell most government people that the cost in blood for their troops would just be too much.

4- Have you considered the people never in the military who have the same mindset as veterans ?
4-A- A lot of these people were raised in military families and many were raised to understand the cost of freedom right down to the dying part without military.

5- Did you know between vets and citizens we out number the military ?

5-A- Military may have bigger toys ; but that doesn't win a war. It's all about stealth tactics ; subterfuge ; guerrilla
warfare or whatever name you want to give it. As I've stated before ; Once their electronic ability is down graded they're on the same field as us old timers and they are at a learning curve loss while we are not.

6- Does our oath go to the people or the government?

6-A- Our oath is to the people first to protect their constitutional freedoms. For we are the true government ; not bodies in Washington D.C.

So to this old man I believe as Stormy does. Not saying troops won't obey government but the numbers will be lop sided because they know deep down they're putting family and friends at risk by obeying.
This question comes up from time to time with many thinking Americans will bend on knee to obey the government
because either their right or that they're afraid of them. Just because one does not hear the sabers rattling doesn't mean surrender. American's are a patient people but if the line of freedom is crossed I truly believe you'll be shocked at the bad attitude and swift justice applied to those who intend to enslave us.

My house hold sleeps very soundly at night ; I on the other hand have only cat napped since 1970. Yet we don't worry about what may come for we watch the watchers and get on with life until the time comes.
I guess the best way to put it is ; I have enough faith in America to know that there'll be enough of us to get the job done. So things such as this is but a bump in the road to an old curmudgeon like me and not really worth worrying about. And I'm sure you're not worried but just trying understand.

Just my 2- cents

[helomech]

We won the British with only 3%. If only 3% stand up and fight that is 9,566,763. Or just over 9.5 million people. That is a lot of people.

[robsdak]

did they change their tasking after Katrina? and i have no idea how the majority of current military members would react. i know quite a few at my current unit that are all for gun removal from civilians. (we don't get along well)

i am not Military, nor have been. i was in NOLA after Katrina and saw firsthand what went on with this. more times than not, the NG walked away and let folks keep what they had. now mind you i was there, attached to a group of local LEO's that went too help. i was nowhere near the heart of the problem. i left 'after' being shot at and was told 'i could not return fire, even too protect myself and others' nothing to do with the gun confiscations, but if your too stupid too accept help, you don't need me.

on the GG video... some folks 'need more EDUCATION' before they go talking about things they nave no clue about. i just about tore stitches loose laughing so hard.

[Gunfixr]

While some of our military and/or NG would follow such orders, many will not. There are tons of arguments about exactly how many, but in the end, it doesn't really matter.
This is because if EVERYBODY under pay of Gov't at ALL LEVELS, which means military, NG, people like DHS, FBI, etc, LEO from everywhere were told to mobilize, it would be close to 900,000 people. This is the cooks, doctors, mechanics, everybody, not just the "trigger pullers".
There's what, about 100 million gun owners in this country? How many would fight under the "take them all" scenario? If only 2%, that's 2 million people, against 900,000, many of whom do not fight as a primary job description. That's also assuming they all agree to participate.
Then, there's bringing in outside forces to handle it. Well, can they get enough to handle 2 million people? You're going to need somewhat more than that to achieve anywhere near a solid victory. Who is going to send that many troops, knowing America is the most armed nation in the world, and not going to just "hand them over"? Not to mention that foreign troops on our soil taking guns will motivate a much larger percentage of the population, both previous gun owners and not previous gun owners to fight them.
Suddenly, they didn't send enough.
There are other factors that will come into play that I won't even get into here and now.

They may get most of the guns some day, but it will not be like this. It will be much more insidious.
Picture a pandemic. Since the Executive Order which allows the President to declare a National Emergency (done by Bush, IIRC), wherein he sends Congress and the Supreme Court home, no elections until it's over, and only he declares it over, was amended just this past July to include infectious diseases, and specifically respiratory diseases, allows him to order any and all to stay home, or any and all to go to a "camp" where you can be treated, and orders how and what with you will be treated, and you cannot refuse, everybody could simply be sent to medical camps. No, you cannot take your firearms with you. If you refuse to go, you can be forced with whatever force is necessary.
Hmm, no one home to keep the guns safe. Everybody is away sick.
Now, I am not saying we will have a pandemic. What I am saying is that there are other, less obvious ways to get you away from your guns, where they can just be picked up at their convenience, without having to risk getting into a firefight to get them.

[Stormfeather]

Ummm, yea. . . . I think the point has been made, Ghost Guns are pretty much here to stay, and so are all guns, until somebody has the balls to start knocking on doors. (and personally, I would HATE to be the first man in the stack on whatever door that happens to, just saying...)

[Gunfixr]

Nope, no door knocking.
I wouldn't want that job, either.

Honestly, I don't really see any of the other less obvious ways working all that well, if much at all. Even trying to go to every house in the US would be a monstrous undertaking. There could be "turn them in for food" when folks are starving, and other such things. But, it would be the more likely approach. No matter what, they'd never get close to all of them.
The whole Bundy Ranch thing showed that people will stand, and come armed. If they want us disarmed, they now know they will have to re-think their approach.

On another note, that little cube cnc mill is cool. I want one.

[Domeguy]

I have a question about who knows what about gun ownership. My local gunshop owner (before Obama put him out of business) told me he submits records to gov. who only holds them for 6 months, then destroys them. Is this true? Does the gov know what guns I have by serial numbers? If I gave a gun away to a family member, how can I prove I no longer have it? Do antique guns with no serial numbers come into play anywhere? What is the legal way to get rid of a gun that is just to old and worn out to be of use? I assume I would turn it into the local police, but I am curious what is the legal way.

[helomech]

Older guns don't have serial numbers. It wasn't until 1934 that guns where required to have serial numbers.

- - - Updated - - -


I have a question about who knows what about gun ownership. My local gunshop owner (before Obama put him out of business) told me he submits records to gov. who only holds them for 6 months, then destroys them. Is this true? Does the gov know what guns I have by serial numbers? If I gave a gun away to a family member, how can I prove I no longer have it? Do antique guns with no serial numbers come into play anywhere? What is the legal way to get rid of a gun that is just to old and worn out to be of use? I assume I would turn it into the local police, but I am curious what is the legal way.

If you buy more than so many guns (I think 3) then the gun store has to send your info to the feds (from what I understand). For a normal gun purchase the dealer keeps the copy of the form on file until he closes his business. When he closes shop he is required to send the copies to the feds. The only real way for them to track the s/n is when the gun shows up at a crime scene, the police/feds call the manufacture and trace the gun through the system. Then they show up at that gun store to find out who the gun was sold to. That is when they would visit you. There is no requirement on your part to prove where the gun is now. All you have to say is I sold that and I don't remember to whom.

[Gunfixr]

The only time a dealer must send purchase info on guns is when a person buys more than one handgun in a five business day period. They did add a couple years ago the purchase of more than one assault type rifle in five business days, but only along the border states.
The only other time is for a firearm trace, and it only applies to that firearm.
The forms you fill out at the dealer are to be kept by the dealer for a minimum of 20 yrs. After that, they would rather you send them in than destroy them. All records must be sent in to them upon the closing down of the business.
I do not believe for one second that any purchase records acquired by the fedgov are destroyed after any length of time.
As for nics background checks, I don't know, since va doesn't use nics, it has its own system. In the VA system, they don't even have the firearm info. All they know is that you purchased a handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
If it is a pre '68 firearm that has no serial number, there simply won't be one on the form.
A trace is conducted in a specific manner. When a trace is conducted, atf has the firearm info, make, model, serial number. They contact the manufacturer, who leads them to the distributor. They lead atf to the dealer, who in turn must furnish the original buyer info within 24 hrs.
This only works for new purchases. If you buy a used gun from a dealer, it most likely will not trace to you. This is because whomever bought it new then may have sold it to a dealer or person. If they did not make a record or do not remember, the trace dies there. One break in the record after the original purchase kills the trace.

[Gunfixr]

Oh, forgot.
Older guns without serial numbers cannot be traced at all, since the trace system is primarily founded on the serial number.