What if...

[Sniper-T]

A new thread, inspired by another thread, after referencing an older thread...

to quote an old movie...
"Shall we play a game?"

I will pose a scenario, and will look for members' responses in dealing with it. Please be specific. "Lock and load, kill them all" type responses are useless.

Scenario 1:
Localized catastrophic event, something that severely affects you... TODAY! Blizzard, hurricane, volcano... that type of shit... unexpected, . you are at work, and the announcement comes over the air.
let's say it is localized to 200 miles from your location, and 'suspected' to last for 10 days...

detailed replies are encouraged... lets learn here peeps...

[bacpacker]

Sniper hope this is something like what your looking for.

I'll throw out a real example from 1993 in East Tennessee. Keep in mind this area is a Zone 7 growing area and don't have winters typically like you folks up north do. Nor the means to deal with lots of snow. 6-8" is a pretty good snow around here.

Feburary 1993 we got hit with a 2 day snow storm that ended up dumping 24" on us. My grandpa was in his 80's at the time and couldn't recall ever having that much snow at one time on the ground. Let alone from one storm. For the area traffic was pretty much at a standstill except for 4WD vehicles and the national guard. Local 4wd clubs were put to use helping folks in the area. National guard vehicles were task with taking medical supplies and other stuff to folks up in the mountians. It took 2 days to get the main roads opened up. Nearly a week to get most all the roads open and it was thawing pretty well by then. The heavy snow load took down lots of trees and power lines with them. There was over 100,000 folks in the dark for close to a week, probably 10,000 for nearly a month.

From our perspective at the time, I hadn't yet gotten involved with ham radio so two way comms were out. Luckily we never lost power so heat and cooking were no problem. Back then I was just getting into what is now called prepping. We had plenty of water and food stored up to see us thru for a month or so. The area we were living in was a trailer park with probably 75-100 homes. A lot of folks around ran out of food and were walking about 4 miles to get supplies after 3 days. Stores were getting low, but due to the fact no one could get out they never ran out.

Several lessons I learned from this. Food and water, keep at least a month on hand for any reason. Have at least a week of that as easy and quick to fix, preferably without the need to heat or cook it. Heat, have 2 or more methods. No more than one that requires electricity. Have an established method of communications. I got my ham licenses the following year. Have the tools you need to try and free up your vehicle. At the time I didn't have the space to store tools, so I had no shovel available. I ended up using a push broom and tramping the snow in place just to clear out my little parking area to be able to get my truck out once the roads started opening up. The trailer park never cleared the roads inside at all.

I guess you could call that a wake up call and a real eye opener for things I needed to do and get.

[Sniper-T]

bp... that is exactly the type of response I was hoping for. 'your' scenario... your way...'


bp, if you woulda lost power.... how would things have changed?

[bacpacker]

We had a kerosene heater we used for supplemental heat anyway to cut down on the light bill. Kero was much cheaper then. We would have hung some blankets in our hall way and isolated a small space in the house as best we could. The house we are in now s much more open and would be hard to close off anything besides one bedroom. But we have a wood stove that will run us out of the house if we don't keep it choked down.

I know you folks up north deal with stuff like this most every year, maybe several times a year. But we just don't have the needed gear to deal with it. Plus lots of areas in the mountians just don't have decent roads, maybe 1-1/2 lanes with one side straight up, the other side a 500 ft drop off. Not much room for error.

I'm looking forward to seeing other things coming out on this thread.

[Sniper-T]

BP, as 'accustomed to winter weather' as we are up here, we still get smacked by mother nature at times. 2 years ago we had a warm spell in Feb, and got a couple inches of rain, followed by -30 temps. Google it, and you'll see kids skating on the paved highways and gravel roads. We were out of power for five or six days, and with the wood fireplace, and freezers of meat, and pantry, we didn't notice anything wrong.

[ElevenBravo]

If I chain up all 4 shoes, Im sure the Jeep will get me home... doesnt have the ground clearance the WarWagon has but Im pretty sure I can make it home (snow).

Once I get home, I make sure everyone is safe. I dont have any fears that civil will break down in the first few hours... after 2 or 3 days things might get "iffy".

If this was snow, Id think the temp would be low enough to preserve food, so Id just take my food out to the shed and stow it there.

I have a nice propane space heater, we can camp comfortably in the living room for the duration.

Dont "need" electricity as long as the food is outside.



If it were summer, then the genny would be on 24X7 for fridge/freezer, whatever lights are needed and fans... it can even run a portable AC I have.


Dericho 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcvXmHphQQo

Luckily I was already home.


EB

[ElevenBravo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5dSm7ANksY

[Sniper-T]

EB, in the hottest of summer, you would need to run a genny for maybe 2 hours, twice a day to maintain fridge/freezer. just don't be opening them every 20 minutes....

[Socalman]

I am in the general area of Pasadena, Ca. Think Rose Bowl football and head east along the mountains for about 10 miles and you are close to me.

My scenario is a large earthquake hits. Water mains and gas lines break. Many of the main access roads to the Los Angeles basin are closed due to bridges being down. Airport runways are damaged. Food supplies are not getting into the area for a few weeks.

We have enough food supplies for almost 3 months, but my water supply is only about 3 weeks worth. I have a propane gas grill we can use for cooking food, boiling water, etc. I always have at least 20 gallons of propane in storage plus a 5 gallon tank on both the grill and an outdoor heater. My camping gear has 7 small propane bottles. We have a small basic first aid kit with a good amount of bandages, antibiotic ointment, alcohol (not the drinkin' kind!) and some bsic OTC medications. Fortunately neither the wife nor I are dependent on meds of any kind to keep us alive.

We have a tent we can set up and live in if the house is too badly damaged. Our longest stay in the tent has been 9 days camping. Even in the coldest months it is not that bad in this area and we may get a bit cold we can survive. We have spent time in the Yosemite high country when it was below freezing and it rarely gets that low here.

We are on our own closed septic system and it may survive a bad quake, so by using water from our spa we can flush it. If it is out of commission, I will be digging a latrine in a back corner of the yard.

Depending on the time of year, we have a number of veggies growing and several fruit trees will provide some nourishment.

We are capable to protect and defend our home in suburbia.

[ElevenBravo]

It depends on the fridge (age, insulation, etc). From studies Ive done, OUR fridge comes out of the safe zone in one hour of idle time.

Our fridge came with the house in which we rent, not like we had choices.. its an OLDER model, I feel pretty sure that a new model would perform much better (In energy use and in duration of cold without power).

You need to have a good reefer thermometer and some spare time on your hands. I did my study when the power went down. For me it was easier to just keep the genny running almost continuous and I was insured no spoilage.

Again, you need to check your particular fridge.... this is an issue that cant be charted and applied across the board.

EB

[Sniper-T]

Those are very good points EB! Thanks!

[Socalman]

It depends on the fridge (age, insulation, etc). From studies Ive done, OUR fridge comes out of the safe zone in one hour of idle time.

Our fridge came with the house in which we rent, not like we had choices.. its an OLDER model, I feel pretty sure that a new model would perform much better (In energy use and in duration of cold without power).

You need to have a good reefer thermometer and some spare time on your hands. I did my study when the power went down. For me it was easier to just keep the genny running almost continuous and I was insured no spoilage.

Again, you need to check your particular fridge.... this is an issue that cant be charted and applied across the board.

EB

This is something I think I will do very soon. If you know that within 2 hours of loss of power your freezer goes above 32 and the fridge moves over 40 you know you will need to begin using food very soon.

[Sniper-T]

to reiterate EB's post... it depends on your fridge! opening mine in a planned manner, I have kept milk 'enjoyably cold' for 4 days during a +30 power-outage, just by opening it once a day! Again as per EB's point, I will no longer consider this as possible with my current fridge, until tested!

[Stormfeather]

With the area I live in, I think my biggest concern would be power outages due to winter storms. Since it would be a winter storm, Im not too worried about food spoilage, since I could simply put the frozen food outside in the snow and it would keep. As far as maintaining heat within the house, I have a spare generator with plenty of fuel to run it enough to heat the house that way if needed. I can also rely on wood stove and the smaller kerosene stoves if needed. Since we keep a good supply of food on hand, and We also keep about 300 gallons of water available, I think we would be fine. The problem lies I think with either neighbors or non-prepping friends coming to us for help, while we wont turn them down, I would have to refine my plans on what Im willing to distribute as far as that goes.

[Domeguy]

Let's see here...an unexpected catastrophic event and how to deal with it? The wife's pregnant and I've had a vasectomy...I would reach for the shotgun and then...oh...different Cato event. Got it. Here is Southern Middle Tennessee, we don't have to worry about a lot of the country's bigger problems. No hurricanes, no volcanos, usually get enough rain, so no fire storms, or droughts. We are very susceptible to tornados though, but not in my exact location. We usually don't get much snow, except for the big one Gran Pappy tells everyone about that comes once every 50 yrs or so. But unlike our brothers and sisters in northers climates, we can get enough snow or ice to knock out the power, but still be just enough above freezing to ruin everything in a freezer. I bought a generator last year when just that scenario happened. The power was off over 24 hrs, looked like the power would be out for days, and had a freezer full of black angus...wife's brother has a meat processing shop. So I buy a generator over the phone at Lowes, and while driving there, there are trees and power lines down everywhere. I'm thinking if the power is on in two weeks, we will be lucky. I get the genny and 15 gal of fuel,and get on home ASAP. I start unpacking it, and realize the lights are on in the garage where the freezer is. I check the freezer...-10. So, I have a generator now...just in case. If nothing else, she's pretty to look at.

[Domeguy]

Just a thought...Besides storing drinking water, I rinse out gal jugs of milk and store water in them. The door under the stairs is in my master bathroom, so I store them under there to use to flush the toilet if the water should happen to go out short term. I've got about 20 gal. Any one else do this?

[ElevenBravo]

Dome, I applaud your mission but, I wont use milk jugs.. Its terrible work to get all the milk residue out in order to use them for water storage. If you all drink soda in 2L bottles, I suggest that instead. Some water jugs would likely be best but reusing what would be waste is smart.

On the topic of flush water, I highly highly suggest connecting a rain barrel to a down spout, its not very expensive (wait, I think you live in a dome, may not apply to you). You will keep 55 gal of flush water.

On the genny... Im sure you were excited to get your prep, but burst the balloon when the power came on so quick... fear not, you will end up using the genny at some point. Remember to exercise it for about 15 min a week or every two weeks at least, to keep it in good operating condition. If you have a large propane tank for your house (we have natural gas), get the tri-fuel kit from US Carb, then you wont have to fret over having enough gasoline on hand, etc..


EB

[Socalman]

We have been considering a generator. We rarely lose power, though back in the early 90's a windstorm took us out of the 20th century for 3 1/2 days. I do not think we need a generator to run everything in our home, as even in the coldest times we rarely get into the 30's. I have thought of one of the smaller Hondas that put out about 1500 -2000 watts. What I like is that they are relatively quiet, small and portable. My bro-in-law has one that we have used on camping trips with them. They have run their fairly large trailer with air conditioning, lights, fridge and at the same time kept our fridge online in our tent trailer. Most campgrounds have a restriction on running geneerators after 9 or so. That Honda is so quiet that this past summer we forgot it was running on two occasions.

A quiet genny will certainly not attract attention of unwanted bad guys who want to take it from me.

[Sniper-T]

^2 on those Hondas! Awesome machines

[ElevenBravo]

My bro-in-law has one that we have used on camping trips with them. They have run their fairly large trailer with air conditioning, lights, fridge and at the same time kept our fridge online in our tent trailer.

Hehe, thats not camping.

- - - Updated - - -

You want at minimum 2K, pref 2.5K... that would be enough to run a fridge, several lights and a box fan or three. A 1.5K might not be enough for the capacitive start of a fridge's compressor motor.

Mine is a 2.5, and Ive run my fridge, a portable AC unit and several lights and two fans for two days. It was expensive, but worth it! Temp was 110 degF outside... brutal with the humidity.

EB

- - - Updated - - -

You want at minimum 2K, pref 2.5K... that would be enough to run a fridge, several lights and a box fan or three. A 1.5K might not be enough for the capacitive start of a fridge's compressor motor.

Mine is a 2.5, and Ive run my fridge, a portable AC unit and several lights and two fans for two days. It was expensive, but worth it! Temp was 110 degF outside... brutal with the humidity.

If all you want is a couple of lights and a fan, a 900w two stroke genny like at Harbor Freight works pretty good and last a long time on a gallon of gas!
http://www.harborfreight.com/900-peak700-running-watts-2-hp-63cc-2-cycle-gas-generator-epacarb-60338.html

EB

[Sniper-T]

I had one of those for a while, and it did work well, but it was definately loud!

[ElevenBravo]

With a 12ga 100ft extension cord and the genny behind the shed, I could not even hear it in the house. HA HA!

[Sniper-T]

Oddly enough that is how I ran mine. lol

Brother, is that you?

[Domeguy]

I would not recommend using used milk jugs for potable water storage either. That's just playing Russian Roulette in my opinion. I only use them for waste water storage, and my friend, you are correct about the rain barrel. On a dome, a gutter would be useless. WAY to much run off to collect. But at some point, I plan on adding a lean to covering on the rt. side of my dome garage to shelter a tractor/bush hog and plan to catch the rain run off there. And oddly enough, our water did go out last night. My wife told me when she came to bed, but I didn't remember as I was writing last nights post. It came back on about 6:30 am, just as she was figuring our how she was going to get to work and clean up there. They were doing some maintenance at the tank.

[Domeguy]

EB, I'm a guy, so I did what all guys would have done, played with my genny anyway. Lol. I just pretended the power was still out to see what it would run. I bought it sight unseen over the phone from Lowes. It is a Genetac GP5500. She's strong enough to meet my emergency needs and still have enough to run a few luxury items...like the wife's blow dryer...heaven help us all if that wort work. I do plan on working to make it a bit quieter this spring. I'm up here on the side of the ridge, and I ran my air compressor this summer a lot at night...up all night...and went on a walkabout to see how loud it was. After I turned the first curve on the driveway, I could no longer hear it. But in the winter with no foliage to help break up the sound, I would rather keep my genny quiet...just to be sure.http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f226/gantsum/dd6c213203e0ea059c1d3f8cad167e30_zps37fc1c41.jpg

[Sniper-T]

domeguy, we have a few round houses around here... look into vinyl gutters, they'll wrap around easily!

milk jugs can be used, but only short term. rince them well immediately after emptying, but they are so thin, they will allow air in and 'spoil' your water very quickly.

Oh, and as for your wife's hairdryer... get one of these:

http://mlibart.tempe.gov/media/full/THM_80_17_124.JPG

shave her head while she sleeps... all good!
;)

[Domeguy]

Oh, and as for your wife's hairdryer... get one of these:

http://mlibart.tempe.gov/media/full/THM_80_17_124.JPG

shave her head while she sleeps... all good!

Sniper...I like the way you think...this even fits in with my low power usage.

[Sniper-T]

mwahahaha!

[Gunfixr]

On the milk jugs, unless it has changed, they contain chemicals that will start to leach out after about 6 months, made for short term use. Since milk won't last that long anyway, it's not an issue. Water jugs that look like milk jugs are of a different plastic, and look different as well.

Also, on the freezer and/or refrigerator: how much you have in it will also affect how long it stays cold. The food inside is a "thermal mass" that also holds temp, whether hot or cold. The more mass, the longer it holds, especially as air warms up rather quickly.
Therefore, a full freezer will stay cold longer, all other things being equal, than a nearly empty one. Also, as you deplete the food inside, it will slowly warm up faster each time it is run to re-cool it.
This also means that the rest of the time, when the lights are on, the freezer/refrigerator is more efficient when full or nearly so. It won't run nearly as often, all other things being equal, such as how often the door is opened, etc.


ETA: I remember what movie "Shall we play a game?" came from.

[Gunfixr]

As for emergencies here, there isn't a whole lot natural-wise. There is hurricanes, but they don't just "show up", and neither does a snow storm. Those don't show up hardly at all anymore, as opposed to when I was a child.
There have been a few mild earthquakes, over my lifetime here.
It flooded once, almost 40 yrs ago. I mean a real flood, city shut down because almost every road was a river.

The biggest thing that comes to mind was hurricane Isabel, which put us out of power for a full two weeks. Water was spotty for most of the first week. It wasn't summer or winter (can't remember spring or fall), so temps weren't terrible. We did not, and still don't have a generator. If you could get to it, ice was being handed out, but it was hours to maybe get some, we didn't bother. We just pulled out the lanterns, put the camp stove on top of the electric stove, and lived pretty much as always, just no tv. Used the grill or camp stove (or both), windows were open, so no fumes issue. Went to bed earlier. Ate what we could out of the freezer, lost the rest.
When the lights came back on, it almost kind of sucked. Except I think I was the only one who really didn't care one way or another about the cold shower part.

We did have a "partial emergency" once. A kind of freak storm blew in and dumped a load of rain which temporarily flooded parts of town, which included us. The furnace was under the house, in the crawlspace, and got flooded, and was fried. It was the beginning of November. We didn't have $8000 for a new furnace, but because we lived in a flood zone, we had flood insurance, and filed under that. Had to wait for the appraiser to come from another state, and file his paperwork. We got our new furnace in mid February, as I recall. Slept under a lot of blankets, acquired and used a kerosene heater, so constantly had to go get fuel.

[ElevenBravo]

ETA: I remember what movie "Shall we play a game?" came from.

http://content8.flixster.com/movie/11/14/87/11148730_det.jpg

[Sniper-T]

^
atta kid!

[ElevenBravo]

These grey hairs aint here for nuthin! There a sign of age... and wisdom!

By the way (boring part here), when that movie came out my friend and I were DEEP into computers, and that was one of our "saucer eyes" movies we watched! We were connecting to BBSs via 1200bps modems and programming our Commodore 64s, we were both in AP Computer Science and were (still are?) a bit of a nerd. (Yeah, I was popular with the girls in school, NOT)

Therefore, I know most of the lines in the movie.

EB

[Sniper-T]

you had a 1200 modem? Wow! I envy you. I had a TRS-80 model 1 with a 300 on a party line. I was a geek-athlete, so I had the best of both worlds. lol

[Sniper-T]

...

Also, on the freezer and/or refrigerator: how much you have in it will also affect how long it stays cold. The food inside is a "thermal mass" that also holds temp, whether hot or cold. The more mass, the longer it holds, especially as air warms up rather quickly.
Therefore, a full freezer will stay cold longer, all other things being equal, than a nearly empty one. Also, as you deplete the food inside, it will slowly warm up faster each time it is run to re-cool it.
This also means that the rest of the time, when the lights are on, the freezer/refrigerator is more efficient when full or nearly so. It won't run nearly as often, all other things being equal, such as how often the door is opened, etc.
....

further to this...If you are running your gen. intermittingly for your freezer, the best thing you can do is keep filling it as you empty it. Fill everything you have with water (potable or not - know what is what), and freeze blocks of ice.

1. you are keeping it full and therefore more efficient.
2. You're storing water.

Win-Win

When I do an extended back country camping trip, I pack my meat cooler with dry ice, and 500ml bottles of frozen water. I only open the cooler every second day, and take out meat for two days, and exchange water bottles with the ones in my regular cooler. They re-freeze, and keep that cooler cold longer, and the fresh bottles keep the milk/drinks/produce cold longer in the other cooler.

It is the norm to load the truck after 12 days out, and have an ice cold beer!

[ElevenBravo]

Well, I was stating what I had and what I was doing in the period.. The 1200 modem and C64 were upgrades from my Vic 20 and 300bps modem!

To tell ya the truth, I felt like I had entered another galaxy when the 2400 speed came out, and 56k.. hang on and buckle up! HA HA!


TRS80 is what we had a school, they were rock solid systems. Mono and no sound made them less glamorous.... Commodore took the scene by storm, I still think its a crying shame they are no more!

EB

[Sniper-T]

I have to agree about the commies... they rocked!

As to the trash-80...
Remember a game called "DeMaze" also known as Death Maze 2000...
"Turn, turn, turn"

[Domeguy]

It too was tech savy at once upon a time. I used to know my way all around a Comadore 64. I remember using a cassette tape to install programs on, and printing out signs an our TI dot matrix printer, but somewhere technology bypassed me, and I am still struggling to catch up.

[realist]

Commodores were too advanced, I had a Tandy....

That said back to the original thread. Like SoCal I look at earthquakes as the big problem brewing. When we had the Loma Pretta quake all the help went to the big cities while the other little ones saw assistance up to two weeks later. We have great contacts due to being involved in public safety which would allow us to get support. We have multiple buildings on the property which have been earthquake strengthened.

The other problem would be a major flood. However we are way above the 100 year flood. There are five different ways we can get out but I do not have any interest in leaving. We have wood and propane for cooking and heating. I have stored water along with a swimming pool for back up. Plus we have a well which can be run off the generator. We always have plenty of food on hand for at least 6 months before we get into our major stores.

Regarding generators we have a 4500 watt Honda which just keeps on running. I am looking at replacing it in the future with a pair of 3000 watt ones. The nice things about these it they can be linked together making them a 6000 watt system. Much better to have two then one These will be used up at my cabin up north.

[Sniper-T]

... I am looking at replacing it in the future with a pair of 3000 watt ones. The nice things about these it they can be linked together making them a 6000 watt system. Much better to have two then one These will be used up at my cabin up north.

Got more info on this set up?

[ladyhk13]

It too was tech savy at once upon a time. I used to know my way all around a Comadore 64. I remember using a cassette tape to install programs on, and printing out signs an our TI dot matrix printer, but somewhere technology bypassed me, and I am still struggling to catch up.

My son has a Commador 64. He found it in the attic of my moms house when she bought it so he kept it. He's a nerd.