EMP only, or EMP and ????

[Alas Babylon]

When I used to think about EMP, I only thought about the aftermath of the actual EMP strike.

but.......

If a country were developing an EMP nuke bomb and missile delivery system, then they would also have that same ability to use missiles to nuke land targets.

So say its Iran or North Korea: would they just shoot an EMP, knowing that we still have assets and ways to strike back, or would they go further - use EMP's first then a few strikes on some major cities that they could reach from their container ship missile platforms? D.C, New York, LA, Omaha (SAC)? If they are well coordinated they could hit several right after or at the same time as the EMP strike.

So, we would need to prep not just for life without power, but possible nuclear contamination as well.

Opinions?

[helomech]

I just don't see a small country like that being able to get a nuke into our airspace. Sure the soviet union could overwhelm our air defenses with large numbers, but smaller countries with one or two would not have any luck IMO.

[Katrina]

I wouldn't be so sure helo, there is a lot we don't know about their capabilities that isn't decimated to the general public. We can only speculate and hope they can't land something here.

[helomech]

But I am secure in our capabilities to defend against a few missile systems. Again if Russia wanted to hit us, they could, they have such large numbers. We have ships, subs and land based defenses that will take care of most threats. I also believe we have space based nuclear defense that is top secret.

[Fidel MD]

Theoretically, a high performance business jet (say, a G-500) could carry a nuclear device up to an altitude of around 60-65,000 feet (the G-500 is certified to 51k normally). At that altitude, over say Lewisburg, PA, an EMP would have a range of 312 miles radius, or all of New York, Washington DC, Toronto and Ottawa, Canada, Norfolk, VA, etc.

A TOT attack with two planes (one over PA and one over (say) Reno, NV would just about cripple the US infrastructure, banking, etc.

[helomech]

Glad I don't live anywhere near a city.

[Domeguy]

Do you (everyone) think you could not only survive, but want to keep on surviving after a nuclear strike. Living near Lynchburg, TN, I don't see our area being much of a military target. We do have an outdated military base for testing air craft engines and rocket engines. We are also in the area for TWA's nuclear power plants, and should they decide to have a very bad day, I might need to cancel my lunch reservation. So I don't know how big of a target our area is, but I don't think I would want to continue trying to survive in a radioactive area. Without a Geiger counter, you would never know what is safe. That just might be the time to use that one bullet I have been saving.
I'm just thinking out loud with the keyboard...what are others thoughts?
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f226/gantsum/38318f65acd5b3b52ec145b631a63aa4_zpsdngw6fsi.jpg

[Fidel MD]

I'm not planning on dying. Thats all there is to it.

And a nuclear war is just another thing to survive. If you're not immediately affected by it, it is survivable with adequate planning and prep.

[Katrina]

Interesting question Dome. I never thought about surviving a nuclear attack. We have Selfridge near Detroit and Kinchloe up north plus all the automobile and manufacturing plants in the big cities that could be converted for war. When Pop was at Selfridge, he and my uncle (in the Air Force at the time) were sent to Goose Bay Labrador for the duration of the Cuban Missal crisis and I heard a lot of talk about that during that time. Guess it stuck with me, I thought if an enemy did nuke us, they'd destroy the state , upper and lower peninsulas. Of course I was only ten or so at the time but it's funny how things a kid hears colors what their actions may be as adults.

[jamesneuen]

I don't think Kincheloe is anywhere close to being re-manned on a large scale even in the event of a disaster. Maybe just for their landing strips as a transfer depot.

Honestly I feel that if a nuclear strike does happen, it will be all about luck and location. If one hits near enough to you, you may as well live in a reactor for all the good your preps will do you. If you get lucky enough to not be targeted then you will have a fighting chance but everything we know about surviving will change overnight. Contaminated surface water and even some ground sources, irradiated soil that has to be removed before planting, overall radiation levels just in the air mean you would have to completely seal your house and get a filter that would remove radiation and keep positive air pressure in the house.

I don't have it in me to just give up and die but I think nuclear attack is one of the only things I wouldn't survive.

[slowz1k]

I'm sitting a few miles from one of the largest tank farms in the Eastern US. I do believe that Greensboro could be percieved as a high value target. To make matters more interesting, most of the tanks are on the flight path for air traffic in and out of Piedmont Triad Int Airport.
I tend to think Terrorist would go for heavily populated targets rather than strategic, or supply targets. Killing inocents seems to be their main objective.
I live well outside of the blast wave area, but fallout would depend greatly on the wind.
We have a basement, that could be hardened a bit to protect us from the fallout and a bunch of KIO3 tablets for the imediate family. A gieger counter would be nice to have.
Fun fact... The tank that I marked with an X caught fire a few years ago. The heat was so great that it melted the aluminum traffic signs over the bridge marked with three red spots.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk95/slowz1k/tanks2_zpsuikvd1ke.png (http://s278.photobucket.com/user/slowz1k/media/tanks2_zpsuikvd1ke.png.html)

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk95/slowz1k/hqdefault_zpsz7qaw40h.jpg (http://s278.photobucket.com/user/slowz1k/media/hqdefault_zpsz7qaw40h.jpg.html)

[Kesephist]

Theoretically, a high performance business jet (say, a G-500) could carry a nuclear device up to an altitude of around 60-65,000 feet (the G-500 is certified to 51k normally). At that altitude, over say Lewisburg, PA, an EMP would have a range of 312 miles radius, or all of New York, Washington DC, Toronto and Ottawa, Canada, Norfolk, VA, etc.

A TOT attack with two planes (one over PA and one over (say) Reno, NV would just about cripple the US infrastructure, banking, etc.

Given that data, I'd say overkill would have the badguys using four planes, the other two over Rapid City, SD and Las Cruces, NM. Ironic that one the devices that would probably eliminate nuclear war would be used near where it was first developed.

A continent sized exchange ala "The Day After" will reduce the human condition in the first 24 hours to a minority, not a complete extinction. Both the best and the worst for survival will be around ( high powered types in Greenbriar-like redoubts, surrounded by physically fit protectors ).

In my patch we have a military base, to be sure, but I doubt given its location it'd be targeted. If it was, when it gets hit I'll be hip-deep in crater glass within seconds.

(Elephant hips.)

[Vodin]

If it comes to that I have knowledge on the locations of some Titan Silos. Used to play laser tag in them as kids.

[ElevenBravo]

After one of the podcast I listened to by Jack Spirco with a guest specialist, I feel a lot better about an EMP attack.. I dont have a link to it, nor can I regurgitate the words but the end impression is.. 99% unlikely.

I still dont lean heavily on electronics, and am glad my Coleman lantern & stove, my AK & M&P, and my reloading press... are all EMP proof! :-)

Other things that are EMP proof:
Matches
Sleeping Bag
My glassess
Manual wood splitter
Axe
Firewood
Dutch Oven


The list goes on and on, but you get the idea... the things you REALLY need to survive are already EMP proof. All the electronic stuff, are luxuries IMHO. I still have 2 ways, flash lights, generator, etc.. but I have a plan for NOT having them.

EB

[Illini Warrior]

the countries with only a small nuk inventory would attempt to smuggle the devices into the country and then into major city targets .... North Korea for example has this capability totally .... they haven't been able to miniturize the warheads enough for a missile .... with Obammy allowing the south border to remain totally open this terrorist type attack would be a snap ....

you need to remember that the big guys, with a first strike capability, are just waiting for a slip up .... if China or Russia were aware of a North Korea attack they could be primed & ready .... catch an empty command chair and hit the landbased ICBMs - you win .... the sub launch is survivable .... both China & Russia are heavy in civil defense for the population

[ElevenBravo]

This is a good podcast..
http://www.revolutionfancast.com/012-jack-spirko-interview-survival-expert/
Talks of EMP.

Ill try to find the one of Jacks talking about EMP.

EB

[Domeguy]

This is a good podcast..
http://www.revolutionfancast.com/012-jack-spirko-interview-survival-expert/
Talks of EMP.

Ill try to find the one of Jacks talking about EMP.

EB

I agree with a lot of what you say in your earlier post about many things already EMP proof, but I have to disagree about the probability being 99% against it happening. It is a sure 100% chance of happening.....from our own sun. It's only a matter of when, 1000 years from now, or tomorrow just after 12:43 PM.

[ElevenBravo]

Dome,
I side with you on the sun EMP, but Im not so much worried about an EMP attack.

Good for you to mention natural EMP, it didnt cross my mind when I posted.

EB

[bacpacker]

The solar EMP worries me much more the a Nuc. It will be mostly world wide.

Nuc blast are surviveable, given enough distance from the blast. EMP will not leave a huge amount of radiation and minimal fallout. Ground burst will cause huge fallout and will spread much more widely.

If you are concerned, I would recommend getting an alpha and a beta/gamma detector. Scan the areas leading outside and do a grid type search and keep notes of what it where for clean or dirty areas. Be sure and survey your self, shoes and hands in particular. Keep supplies of Tyvek shoe covers and overalls, nitrile gloves, maybe head cover and full face respirator if you expect to be close to Ground Zero. It will be no fun for years, but is survivable.

[Domeguy]

I prep for natural disasters more than man made disasters. And the highest natural disaster I prep for is a sun induced EMP.

[Alas Babylon]

I too mainly prep for natural stuff and solar EMP is high on the list. I was reading something the other day that mentioned an EMP followed by select limited nuke strikes as a 1 -2 punch. That's when I realized I have basically no preps in the nuke area. I have always felt that if the big boys started flinging them, then most of us (people in general) are toast, preps or not.
What started me thinking was the limited strikes. Limited with no EMP (like a terrorist hit) would be ok as we would still have communications and government (for what they are worth), to tell what areas are getting fallout. But with no comms from an EMP, and then a strike, how do we know if we are safe to go out, to eat from the garden. Just another scenario to think about.
I guess I need to get a geiger counter.

[Fidel MD]

I too mainly prep for natural stuff and solar EMP is high on the list. I was reading something the other day that mentioned an EMP followed by select limited nuke strikes as a 1 -2 punch. That's when I realized I have basically no preps in the nuke area. I have always felt that if the big boys started flinging them, then most of us (people in general) are toast, preps or not.
What started me thinking was the limited strikes. Limited with no EMP (like a terrorist hit) would be ok as we would still have communications and government (for what they are worth), to tell what areas are getting fallout. But with no comms from an EMP, and then a strike, how do we know if we are safe to go out, to eat from the garden. Just another scenario to think about.
I guess I need to get a geiger counter.

I would have thought that someone with your handle would be all over the nuclear preps....

And no, a geiger counter isn't the first thing I'd get.

Check out these sources of information:

http://www.ki4u.com/nwss.pdf

http://www.futuroscopio.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Clayton-Life-after-Doomsday-A-Survivalist-Guide-to-Nuclear-War-and-other-Major-Disasters-1980.pdf

[Alas Babylon]

Thanks for the links, I have already visited the ki4u site. I printed the guide from the futuroscopio site. Looks to be full of useful information.

I guess I understated my preps. It would have been more appropriate to say that I have not put nuke preps very high on my list as opposed to nothing at all. Sorry for the misinformation. I have stocked (and renewed old stock) Potassium Iodide, and now Potassium Iodate, for years, along with coveralls, tyvek and such (they have a multitude of uses). Beyond that I just have not put much thought into nuke stuff. Time to read up.
As for the Geiger counter, my thoughts are how do I know when we need to take the KIO3, or when to use coveralls to go outside?

[Fidel MD]

You only need to wear coveralls if you are in the fallout field.

Fallout is radioactive dust and dirt, and is created when a surface detonation (a nuclear detonation in which the fireball touches the ground) sucks up dirt, and decay products of the nuclear detonation (all mostly radioactive) get stuck to it (the dirt). Because most radioactive products and byproducts are fairly heavy (ultimately, uranium decays into lead, for example) they "fall out" fairly quickly. The worst theoretical case is to be within 300-500 miles downwind of either a primary military base with missile silos (think of the northern Rocky Mountain, a few Naval installations on the coasts) or perhaps counter-value targets like large cities. The coveralls just make it easy to get the dust off before you go inside your shelter.

Later today or tomorrow (when I get home) I'll post something on what KI is good for (a lot less than most people assume). If you need to take it, you should start immediately before you are exposed to radioactive iodine (131-I).

[Fidel MD]

And here you go....


http://www.shtfready.com/threads/4778-Use-of-Iodine-blockers-in-nuclear-fallout-environments


There are some other topics in the Medical forum you might find interesting.

[Stormfeather]

I think the nuclear fallout issue, if a single warhead, has been "blown up" (excuse the pun) more than it needs to. We have done a lot of studying on this in War College and while multiple warheads thru various locations are a real buzz-kill, a single warhead is actually pretty survivable. Take a look at this link, put in your location, choose your favorite bad guy warhead, and detonate to see the effects of the blast and fallout. You can post up multiple factors to even include wind drift/wind conditions.

http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/classic/


For the more highspeed low drag types with google earth...

http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap3d/