What is the Definition of SHTF?

[Kesephist]

The title is explicit.

[helomech]

I believe shtf has a very narrow definition. I feel that if there is help coming, then it is not a SHTF situation. I have been through many hurricanes and have flooded, been without power for weeks and never considered that SHTF. IMO shtf means major things have went down on a national or world level and you are on your own with what you have.

[Domeguy]

I agree with Mr. H above. SHTF to me means from now on, your on your own. There will not be any local police, national Guard, national military, and no working Government. It is a n entirely different event than a hurricane, tornados, fires, as all of these things are local and do not determine the outcome of our government.

[Socalman]

I think of SHTF a bit differently than Helomech and Domeguy. Not to disparage what they say, this is just my personal thought on the definition.

SHTF means something has happened that has upset the typical order of society as we currently know it. I believe it could be a hurricane, tornado, civil unrest or, my biggest concern, major earthquake. Many if not most utilities will be out for over a week to a few months. Due to no electricity the banks and ATMS can not dispense cash. Transportation has been disrupted and food store shelves are barren. Those who feel entitled may gather into larger groups or mobs and attempt to take from those they believe may have necessities like food and hygiene items. Due to transportation problems law enforcement can not help, perhaps many are unable even to get to work. When these events happen, we must be prepared to live on our own for up to several months. I believe that after 6 to 8 weeks we would see things begin to return to normal.

In the early months of 2010 an area in the San Bernardino mountains where my family has a small vacation cabin experienced one of the heaviest snowfalls on record. Snowplows could not keep up with the snow and soon residential streets were impassable. Finally only the major roads within the valley were open. However due to the heavy snow and ice on the roads there was no access to the valley from any of the three roads. Store shelves were bare. Tourists trapped in hotels, motels and rental units were helped out a bit by the local residents but many were hungry. Fortunately gas, water and electricity stayed on. Finally after 12 days the first trucks were able to make it up the mountain and begin resupply to the markets. For some that was a small SHTF.

By the way, my parents first bought a place there in the late '50's and we always kept about 10 days worth of food stocked just in case such a thing happened. When my wife and I got our place we do the same thing, food and water for about 2 weeks are there.

[Illini Warrior]

I think of SHTF a bit differently than Helomech and Domeguy. Not to disparage what they say, this is just my personal thought on the definition.

SHTF means something has happened that has upset the typical order of society as we currently know it. I believe it could be a hurricane, tornado, civil unrest or, my biggest concern, major earthquake. Many if not most utilities will be out for over a week to a few months. Due to no electricity the banks and ATMS can not dispense cash. Transportation has been disrupted and food store shelves are barren. Those who feel entitled may gather into larger groups or mobs and attempt to take from those they believe may have necessities like food and hygiene items. Due to transportation problems law enforcement can not help, perhaps many are unable even to get to work. When these events happen, we must be prepared to live on our own for up to several months. I believe that after 6 to 8 weeks we would see things begin to return to normal.

In the early months of 2010 an area in the San Bernardino mountains where my family has a small vacation cabin experienced one of the heaviest snowfalls on record. Snowplows could not keep up with the snow and soon residential streets were impassable. Finally only the major roads within the valley were open. However due to the heavy snow and ice on the roads there was no access to the valley from any of the three roads. Store shelves were bare. Tourists trapped in hotels, motels and rental units were helped out a bit by the local residents but many were hungry. Fortunately gas, water and electricity stayed on. Finally after 12 days the first trucks were able to make it up the mountain and begin resupply to the markets. For some that was a small SHTF.

By the way, my parents first bought a place there in the late '50's and we always kept about 10 days worth of food stocked just in case such a thing happened. When my wife and I got our place we do the same thing, food and water for about 2 weeks are there.



definitely a ditto with one exception .... a SHTF can also be on a personal level .... lose a job or have a accident/ailment for example .... having FEMA rolling in after 48 hours does not discount a natural disaster from being a SHTF

now TEOTWAWKI - The End Of The World As We Know It - is a WROL and end of civilization with no recovery possible in your lifetime .... don't confuse the two

[ElevenBravo]

Im in there with SoCal and Warrior.. Could be isolated and temporary, or big and LONG term.

Im of the mindset there are multiple levels.

1) The shit kinda hit the fan
2) The shit hit the fan
3) Damn, the shit really hit the fan this time!

EB

[Katrina]

Got to tell you all a story about my cousin. they live in the area that has tons of snow every winter and they get shut down(mini shtf's) at least once a winter for 2-4 days Well, last November my cousin and hubby were in the snowstorm that shut down their area of NY for about a week or so. Her hubby went to work that day before the storm hit that shut them down, local Home Depot about 25 miles away and got stranded there for a week. She was at home. Their home is an 1800's colonial, main house is totally heated by a wood stove and they have been canning, dehydrating,freezing most of the food they grow since 2009.They have a great root cellar and wood was stacked on a covered porch. Needless to say while he had to stay at the little motel across the street till he got dug out and could get home,she was home snug as a bug in a rug.She said she caught up on her reading (I loaned her One Second After that summer) got some things done in the house. Told me that they had decided to be as self sufficient as possible when the economy crashed and both of them lost their jobs in FL. He had an opportunity in NY and they decided to move. She told me since reading the book, they've decided to expand their garden more this summer and see about getting another wood stove for the addition. It was added in the 30's and has a natural gas stove for heat. She said she hadn't realized that they had been prepping, just that they needed to make sure they had enough to last them if things turned south again and have room for family if the parents and siblings had to go there to survive.They have a neighbor in his 70's that puts up sauerkraut for them in exchange for part of their crop of cabbage, I told her go pick his brains and learn all you both can from him. He was born and raised in the area and has helped them quite a bit.

[Sniper-T]

Awesome Kat!

I, too, believe in the difference between SHTF and TEOTWAKI. SHTF can be a minor inconvenience like Kat mentioned, which at the time may seem devastating, but are surmountable.

SHTF is a pain in the ass inconvenience. it changes your lifestyle for a time.
TEOTWAKI is the lifestyle changer. It changes your life forever!

imo!

[Domeguy]

For me, TEOTWAWKI, Is just that...the end. No amount of prepping will help, as in an all out nuclear war. I am a clild of the Cold War, and grew up living among B-52's and nuclear bombs as an every day normal thing on the bases we lived at. We launch first was the goal I grew up with, with the realization they might launch first, but either way...no one wins. So I don't even count that in my prepping senerio. So for me, SHTF is the big one to plan for. It's the end of the government and all of our social plans such as running water, electricity, regular food deliveries, a retirement check arriving in the mail, ect. In other countries, their governments do collapse over night on a semi regular basis. Their electricity may be on today...maybe not. There is no safe drinking water. If their government failed overnight, so did your pension. So this is what I prep for and maybe this may help to explain why I think the way I do. I am not saying everyone else is wrong in their plans, but why I think mine are right for me.

[Sniper-T]

I disagree DG... teotwAWKI... key words being, AS WE KNOW IT!!! just because you're thrown back into the 1800's doesn't mean an end... it means an end as you know it... or more appropriately... a change! A Harsh change!

[Katrina]

I agree with you all, especially EB. The list is great! We had minor problem a few years ago, at which time DH was VERY glad I had insisted on the standby. Son 2 and family came to our house just after grandson was born because the electricity went out here and in the town where they lived for about a week. They didn't have a portable gas generator at the time and couldn't get one but they have one now. It was the middle of winter and while their home was very well insulated, 1920 bungalow, they wouldn't have been able to keep the baby warm. Without the baby, they would have toughed it out, they had a grill so they could have cooked and boiled water if they had to, the toilets still worked. They live about 4 blocks from the grocery store son 2 works at and since son 2 does most everything by cash, he would have been able to get somethings, provided the store was open. If it was #2, they would move here for the duration. I'm working on the third scenario where nuthin works and it ain't ever gonna work, the what am I going to do then type planning. I am feeling so far behind due to health issues (me and hubs) and situation with Son1 and his kids, I get frustrated at times but I get on here and you all help keep me grounded. Like someone once said "It's not a race but a way of thinking and living".

[Domeguy]

I disagree DG... teotwAWKI... key words being, AS WE KNOW IT!!! just because you're thrown back into the 1800's doesn't mean an end... it means an end as you know it... or more appropriately... a change! A Harsh change!

I disagree with your disagreement because we may be in agreement. Being thrown back to the 1800 wouldn't mean the end, I meant for me, trying to live through an all out nuclear war would be the end for me. I see the fall of our government, or a disaster from which there will be no help not a TOE..., but as SHTF. No water, I can live through, no power, I can live through. No ATM, Walmart, Netflix, Oreos, internet, bank, I can live through...ok, maybe not the Oreos. But the rest I find to be a SHTF ordeal. Just sayin.

[Illini Warrior]

I disagree DG... teotwAWKI... key words being, AS WE KNOW IT!!! just because you're thrown back into the 1800's doesn't mean an end... it means an end as you know it... or more appropriately... a change! A Harsh change!



totally agree .... when it's the true end of the world - human life around the world ends - that's armageddon - a word that preppers should never interchange with any other prepper verbage .... and really of no use to preppers except on a religious/spiritual end basis ....

[realist]

Socal man I agree with you. However since we do not have snow, or rain for that matter, I look toward earthquakes as Mother Nature inflicting a SHTF situation with us. I have found in that type of situation, the major population centers are going to get help first and then the outlying areas. We are in an outlying area. When San Francisco was hit by the 1906 earthquake the majority of the damage was from fire. Where I live it was knocked down and turned into a parking lot. Ift I am farther north at my property help may come three or four weeks at most. It is for that reason we plan for not only earthquake but fire also.

For some a SHTF situation could be divorce or for that matter depending on your mind set it could be TEOTWAWKI. However I look at TEOTWAWKI as being something in the neighborhood of an EMP/CME or a nuke. All these will change the way we live and depending upon how you are prepared physically and mentally will determine if you will survive, that is so long as you are not at ground zero. The thing that kills me it people talking about having to get ready for this or that. I started decades ago and I am always adding to what I have or what I can learn all the time, its a way of life. At times it can be overwhelming then you regroup and move on.

[helomech]

To me if help is available short term form a government or other organization that I would not call that SHTF. When police are around and fire departments and medical help is still close that IMO is not a SHTF event. I have been through many rough times, but never once did I feel like the SHTF. Heck my cell phone still worked through most of it. I would not die (if not killed by the initial even) even if I was not prepared. Preparing just makes you more comfortable in these type events. IMO in a SHTF even if you don't have preparations you will die. This to me is what separates a difficult time to a SHTF event.

[Vodin]

As you can read everybody's definition of the acronym's presented here varies to the person.
SHTF seems to come down to a persons view of a situation. While it is not 'the big one' it has a large impact on that person.
TEOTWAWKI on the other hand has the wording denoting that multiple entities are effected. This to me says that things have taken a course that can not expect a normal use of resolutions. This is where one has to think/act/react out of the box to provide the possibility of survival.

Help is another part of the formula. Help could be available in both situations but it is only effective if the person experiencing the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI can use the senses, comprehend the situation and create a resolution.

In both situations death may occur it all depends on how on responds.

And again this answer is coming from another persons view.

[Illini Warrior]

To me if help is available short term form a government or other organization that I would not call that SHTF. When police are around and fire departments and medical help is still close that IMO is not a SHTF event. I have been through many rough times, but never once did I feel like the SHTF. Heck my cell phone still worked through most of it. I would not die (if not killed by the initial even) even if I was not prepared. Preparing just makes you more comfortable in these type events. IMO in a SHTF even if you don't have preparations you will die. This to me is what separates a difficult time to a SHTF event.


then ... instead of prepping for just SHTFs - you also prep for "hard times" .... it all shakes out in the end no matter how you dice the fruit ....

[helomech]

then ... instead of prepping for just SHTFs - you also prep for "hard times" .... it all shakes out in the end no matter how you dice the fruit ....

Right but if we go through a hurricane and flood I don't say the shtf, I call my insurance company and wait for a check while I clean up. If I get hurt I call 911 instead of stitching my self up. Huge difference IMO.

[Illini Warrior]

Right but if we go through a hurricane and flood I don't say the shtf, I call my insurance company and wait for a check while I clean up. If I get hurt I call 911 instead of stitching my self up. Huge difference IMO.


you're still prepping ... even if it's only garbage bags and a shovel for clean up ....

[helomech]

you're still prepping ... even if it's only garbage bags and a shovel for clean up ....

I have never said I was not prepping. This discussion is on what is the definition of SHTF. Not on if we prep, we all prep, that is part of the reason we are here.

Not sure why you are trying to change it to whether or not we prep?

[realist]

Maybe this will help some who regarding SHTF. Not everyone's SHTF is the same, obviously. We all prep for what we perceive will affect us not others. Where are others may see us as crazy for not taking X into consideration it may be just routine to us.

For those of you in Hurricane areas it is kind of like out 100-year flood. Then you get the major "Tropical Depressions" heavy rains. In the 90's we had two 100-year floods in a five year period (for the life of me I don't understand their terminology I don't feel 200 years old). After the second one everyone was ready for the third only it did not come but we did have major flooding over the next five year period. So we just go in a routine to prepare for the floods, not a SHTF situation, just flooding. What we thought was routine now, was unusual to others. We made the National news periodically but did not think anything about it. I had a dear friend who call to make sure we were alright one afternoon during some heavy rains, I was puzzled since she was in Melbourne, Australia. She said she saw the flooding, not the 100-year floods on TV, and want to make sure we were not flooded out. So what is major to others in another local might just be getting to be routine to the affected area. This is truly were the insurance agent comes in and where you get to know them on a first name basis after a couple of times. So how do you plan for things like this, you just store your stuff above the last high water mark. I do not even worry about the floods any more, but look to them as a nuisance. If one road is flooded then there are three others I can take out of our area. Now if it were the earthquake I have Plan A, B, C, etc..........

[Illini Warrior]

I have never said I was not prepping. This discussion is on what is the definition of SHTF. Not on if we prep, we all prep, that is part of the reason we are here.

Not sure why you are trying to change it to whether or not we prep?


it's not a SHTF to U - Why prep? ..... if you can't go about your normal day - need to do extraordinary jobs - use tools & materials that you wouldn't normally use .... it's the definition of a SHTF

[helomech]

it's not a SHTF to U - Why prep? ..... if you can't go about your normal day - need to do extraordinary jobs - use tools & materials that you wouldn't normally use .... it's the definition of a SHTF

LMAO, do you not see the difference. Prepping is being prepared for things that happen in life. For the last 3 days I have been without power, no a SHTF I cranked up the generator and had A/C, hot showers and so on. Drove to the store for gas every now and then. That is being prepared for normal things that happen fairly often.

Now SHTF means I am on my own, and must make it by myself.

You really can't separate these two things in your head?

[Domeguy]

Again, I gotta agree with the helicopter guy

[Sniper-T]

damn! that gyro guy has a point! Seriously!

[Stormfeather]

SHTF to me?

When the government tells me to do one thing, and I know in my heart and soul, I cannot in good conscience do it.

Thats how I know the SHTF.

[Sniper-T]

So what do YOU do Stormy... follow orders or your conscious?

...

[eagle326]

So what do YOU do Stormy... follow orders or your conscious?

...

I can guarantee that Stormy will go with his conscious peacefully until he cannot.
Then the Ohio boy's country upbringing ; military service training will come fore front. Won't be pretty for those diametrically opposed to him and his posse.
Stormy knows his mission before him and and the only thing that can stop him is death. Good luck with that. There'll be a pile of bodies and spent brass from his reply if it comes to that.

Family & MAG 1st. And my offer still stands. If he needs shooter bait I still available ; Too old to run & gun ; so might as well have some fun popping targets while main force redirects fire power. :p


Just this old curmudgeon's opinion from all of our post on this site.

[Gunfixr]

SHTF to me?

When the government tells me to do one thing, and I know in my heart and soul, I cannot in good conscience do it.

Thats how I know the SHTF.
I, for one, hope that day never comes.
You, and many others, will have a bad choice to make. I say bad, over tough, because i think for most it wont be so tough. They will know right away to follow either orders or conscience. But it will be bad, for there will be consequences either way.

[Kesephist]

I, for one, hope that day never comes.
You, and many others, will have a bad choice to make. I say bad, over tough, because i think for most it wont be so tough. They will know right away to follow either orders or conscience. But it will be bad, for there will be consequences either way.

If Der Tag ever comes, in whatever of several forms it could take, there is one sort of backhanded positive aspect out of it... it will show, once and for all, the armchair quarterbacks/closet ephialtes-quisling-arnolds, with less than a half roll of dimes, from the folks that put forth the effort and the sweat and the nerve. Just sort of hope it doesn't cost too many of the latter to expose the former.

Perhaps not the best place to post this, but I would remind all of the Tom Clancy bromide known as Greer's Law:

C %, where C= X2

C% being the chance of a secret being compromised
X being number of people actually in on the secret in the first place.

EX. 3 people in on a secret, 9% chance it is blown.

Grimly enough, this formula implies that a secret is at least half certain to be blown with 8 people, and definitely blown with 10.

Food for thought. Handy pepto bismol recommended.

Kesephist

[Stormfeather]

SniperT, yea, Im pretty sure everyone here knows I will follow my conscience, I have no problems doing that. Our unit and I have had these "theoretical discussions" on what to do if the chain of command issues what is deemed an unlawful order, what we would do, how we would react, and what would we do as far as reactionary issues, tertiary issues, and such. I look at it this way, Im going to quietly slip away, secure transportation, unlock the gun box, and use the uniform to its fullest advantage to get to my family and concern myself with taking care of them. I can go easy and quietly, or I can go hard and loudly. Either way Ive got backup and the skillset. But while it wont be pretty, at least I wont be alone because my team will be with me right by my side. Each has their own objective, and will support the team until that time comes that they need to peel off and tend to their own.

Now, Eagle326, you old fart, every time we have a conversation, I instantly revert back mentally to a favorite SHTF movie of mine, The Postman with Kevin Costner. Hes talking to that old grizzled bearded salty war horse and hes asking him "why are you here, you're too old to ride a horse, too crippled to sort the mail... (yea... and I cant see so well either)....so why are you here?" The old fart looks him in the eye and say.."I know stuff" Costner looks at the old guy with a questioning look... "you know stuff?".... "yea.. I know stuff". He stands there, his eyes travel down to the the guys bicep adorned with a faded Army Airborne tattoo, hits a moment of realization and walks away. Old guy lights up a joint...yea, thats what I think of every time I think of you. You know "stuff."

That being said, here the reason why I will someday take you up on half of your offer. I know youre old... you're so damn old you probably smell like stale Smuckers jelly and Coccia Haus pizza... but I also recognize... "you know stuff". You see, Ive been involved in warfare in one form or another for nearly 30 years now, but every single warped ass, crazy, kill-kill-kill thing Ive learned, didnt come from folks in my generation, we had to learn them from people in your generation. And while my guys and I are good at waging war, we will never be as good as the old school. One thing Ive learned, While imitation is the biggest form of flattery, no matter how good you are, you can never be as good as the original. Same applies to Coca-Cola, a mans first piece of ass, his first hunt, his first drunk, his first fight and his first combat kill. Everything after that is chasing the dragon to get that original "high" back. Sure I could use you tactically to draw fire and watch you skitter about on a camouflaged hover-round scooter while taking incoming... and you would probably be cackling to high heaven while its going down around you, ( a sight worthy of a warriors Valhalla no doubt) but to me, that is a serious mis-allocation of resources. The smart man listens to the experienced man, and thats how the smart man becomes experienced. So, sorry to say, if/when the time comes, you know Im going to take you up on that offer, but old salt, you are going to be directing fire for all us young guns, If it makes you feel any better, you can get yourself an old Patton riding crop and dual silver six shooters and a kevlar with a star, and wear an ascot! If you dont have one, Im sure BrownWaterRiverRat will lend you one of his 15....

[Stormfeather]

If Der Tag ever comes, in whatever of several forms it could take, there is one sort of backhanded positive aspect out of it... it will show, once and for all, the armchair quarterbacks/closet ephialtes-quisling-arnolds, with less than a half roll of dimes, from the folks that put forth the effort and the sweat and the nerve. Just sort of hope it doesn't cost too many of the latter to expose the former.

Perhaps not the best place to post this, but I would remind all of the Tom Clancy bromide known as Greer's Law:

C %, where C= X2

C% being the chance of a secret being compromised
X being number of people actually in on the secret in the first place.

EX. 3 people in on a secret, 9% chance it is blown.

Grimly enough, this formula implies that a secret is at least half certain to be blown with 8 people, and definitely blown with 10.

Food for thought. Handy pepto bismol recommended.

Kesephist

Kesephist... way too much math and calculatin formulas and stuff...

Stormfeathers Law

1- There are three sides to every story, 1) Yours...2) Theirs...3) And what actually happened.
2- If you kill them, then theres only 2 sides to the story,
3- When you tell your side of the story, stare long and hard at who you are telling it to. There then becomes only one side to the story.
4- Always stick to your story.

[Sniper-T]

dead men tell no tales!

[bacpacker]

Old fart knows stuff. That's one to keep in mind.

Does this mean Eagle has a new name? ��

[Gunfixr]

Storm, i figured you were going to follow conscience. But some wont, and that will make it bad for all.
If everybody followed conscience, the day Storm mentions wouldnt mean a whole lot, as not much would really happen.

Yes, definitely, the old guys do "know stuff". I try to learn from one whenever i can.

[Stormfeather]

Storm, i figured you were going to follow conscience. But some wont, and that will make it bad for all.
If everybody followed conscience, the day Storm mentions wouldnt mean a whole lot, as not much would really happen.

Yes, definitely, the old guys do "know stuff". I try to learn from one whenever i can.

I thought you was one of those "old guys"?!?!?

[Gunfixr]

I dont know, depends on what qualifies.
Im not quite 50.
Yes, i do know stuff, but folks older than me know more stuff.
Plus, i have never been in the military or been le. So, there is a whole area where i dont know as much stuff as those who have "been there".
I have studied it all my life, and know more than the average "cake eating civilian".
I still dont want to be your cannon fodder, though. But then, your ao is a long walk from here.

[realist]

Storm your laws are kinda like the title of a book I read long ago, "Three can keep a secret if two are dead."

[Sniper-T]

Assuming this film is made off the book... it sounds interesting!

http://threecankeepasecret.com/

[Stormfeather]

Storm your laws are kinda like the title of a book I read long ago, "Three can keep a secret if two are dead."

Believe it or not, those are my Dad's rules, he explained them to me as a young man when the police came to the house to investigate an incident that I was actually involved in as a young and dumb knucklehead. A couple of friends and I went to visit a buddy who wasnt home, and although we had permission to hang out at the house, we didnt have permission to root thru the (then single and VERY attractive) mom's underwear drawer and look/touch/smell her unmentionables... of which one of our friends felt the need to liberate a few pairs for his personal enjoyment, unbeknownst to us. Well, mom came home, thought the house had been broken into, and of course called the police.

Over the years, the rules have refined themselves into what they are today. Ahhh.. the glory of misspent youth.

[Gunfixr]

Ahhh, yes,.i remember times kind of like that.

And friends who i just knew were going to blow it.

[eagle326]

Stormy ; You certainly have a way with words brother.
As for the Smuckers jelly; Yea I'll probably have a couple with me when hover boarding . ;) As for old school versus new school ; In today's warfare it's the combination that will decide the outcome. Technology is fine until it goes down. Then we'll back to the older days ; yet there's always going to be someone who can piece both generations of warfare together and I'm betting that you're that guy along with some other youngins' on this site.

Warfare is like baking a cake. I learned much from 68 to 73. Yet I learned more from the guys in Korea and W.W.-2 guys. These men did things I thought I'd never do. ( never say never ) Many of the things told to me were to teach me a lesson and yes it helped me in my time in the Army. Yet I've had to learn the difference between now and then.
2 generations have grown up without moral standings. Those who have the understanding are in the minority. They
must learn that when the time comes that they are going up against animals who know not morality. There fore we all must understand that we'll be up against beasts and that no quarter is given lest we lose the war.

How much of my knowledge is worth while I have no idea. But I'll give it freely and hope it pans out for the better. Now as for me ; I've have young relatives tell me I'm getting old and fragile so you better hurry this game up or I'm likely to get my dead man's last jump too early. :p

[Gunfixr]

There was a song once about how things you never thought could happen, did happen just like that, under the right circumstances.
It was just a song, but many writers use life to write from, so maybe there was some truth in there.
I took from, coupled with what i have seen and heard, to mean that one should keep an open mind, for, just because you think something is impossible, for someone else it may be the only logical next thing. This doesnt even count that things happen in nature that we humans just dont see very often, either because we just arent in the right place at the right time, or because the cycle is too large for our little minds to grasp. We think its impossible, for nature, its that time again, just another day.

[Sniper-T]

You mean like a bird, evolving to withstand -60C temps, changing to eliminate flight, developing swimming skills to rival a fish, traverse thousands of miles by foot and 6" legs from mating grounds to feeding grounds, laying eggs in the most in-hospitable place on the planet... And yet thriving?? That kind of impossible? If that kind of feat were possible I would name them badboys 'Penguins' after the gnarly assed hockey team from Pittsburg!

As for the next best impossibility, I would look in the mirror and think of my ancestors, running around hunting sabre tooth tigers with rocks and sticks. Damn! even they knew good eats!

Nothing is impossible. If you think it is, the way to do it just hasn't been figured out yet... but give me time, I'm still young...

rofl!

[eagle326]

Old fart knows stuff. That's one to keep in mind.

Does this mean Eagle has a new name? ��


SON!! ; Don't make me drive to Tennessee and give you a fetching up. I answer to 1 name and 1 name only. Are we clear on the matter son ? :p

[bacpacker]

Just funning with you Pop! :)

[ElevenBravo]

Someone was overly touched by The March of the Penguins

[Sniper-T]

That, and "surf's up"
;)

[eagle326]

Just funning with you Pop! :)


I know; but someone has to mess with you. :D

[bacpacker]

I know. But I thought old fart was a term of endearment? ??

[eagle326]

I know. But I thought old fart was a term of endearment? ??

I knew I should've never allowed you to take that psychology course. ;)

[Domeguy]

So what do YOU do Stormy... follow orders or your conscious?

...

I personally don't feel that's a fair question to ask, as no one can be sure untill they are out in that position.

[bacpacker]

Yay, DG made it back

[Gunfixr]

Maybe. Some are unsure. Some may not want to say, at least at this point. I am not in that position, but i know several who are.

Most have made it clear which they would follow.

It does mean that you may be trading your livelihood for your conscience. The rght thing is not always the easy thing.

[eagle326]

I personally don't feel that's a fair question to ask, as no one can be sure untill they are out in that position.

I will respectfully agree to disagree Domeguy. For those of us who swore the oath everlasting until we draw our last worldly breath is one that comes with no choices in my book.
You follow orders as long as they are lawful. If not then you do not follow them ; very simple. Now could it put you in a position of conflict? It could and most likely would. But the decision has to be for our country's rights and survival not what Government believes or our self interest if it binds the rights and freedoms of it's citizens.

Don't get me wrong ; it'll be a hard choice for some but for those of us who understand the oath it won't be a hard decision to make. And I do believe we'll be in the majority. Even for those who have never served and taken the oath the same choice will eventually come to each and everyone and they will then have to decide as we did.
For you see freedom is a lifestyle that cost much in time and effort so that it can't be stolen by anyone military or civilian and it may cost us our lives. But then what good is your freedom if you're bound and shackled by your master.

So in the end your only choice is to rail against those who expect you to follow unlawful orders against fellow country men and try and leave as peacefully as possible. For sides will be chosen. Those for freedom as intended and those who wish to crush it.

May we never come to that day but in the end I think we all can see the writing on the wall and I know how myself and the vast majority of my military brothers will vote and it won't be to follow but to lead the fight as best we can to bring our country back.

Just my 2 cents
Eagle

[Domeguy]

I respect your respecting my respect for the re-respect of my respectfully respecting my...ah fuck it. It's all good.

[Gunfixr]

I think the biggest problem will be drawing the line. There will be orders that are bkrderline, pushing the envelope, maybe even tearing it just a bit, but not going all the way.
Plus, when it comes down, they will try to play it so that it doesnt look like what it really is, to get more cooperation.

I dont think it will come to an all out in the open kind of thing if they can help it.
It will be up to those who took the oath to recognize it when it comes, and isnt so clear, which may be hard to do. The black and white is easy, its the gray that can be difficult.
Really, there are things going on in this country every day that require breaking the oath to accomplish. Yet they are still happening. No, it isnt the kind of thing we are discussing now. So, somewhere, a line must be drawn. As things escalate, either the oath continues to be ignored, or somewhere along the line, a decision is made that it will go no further.

I suppose it falls under a pick your battles kind of thing.

[Caveman Survival]

I'm a little late to the party here but I will throw my .02$ into the mix.

For me, SHTF is literal. An event has happened and now there is a big mess to clean up (just like when actual shit has hit a fan). 2008 was a SHTF scenario in my eyes (not so much personally, but globally). Things didn't necessarily get shut down, but events happened (economic crashes, bailouts, lost jobs, lost homes, bankruptcies, etc) that people needed to address in a fashion that they were not normally accustomed to. SHTF does not necessarily lend itself only to a disruption of life and safety (although it can be inclusive) but also to a situation of temporary personal or long term societal chaos. SHTF in Greece. SHTF in Baltimore. If Canadians weren't so passive shit should be hitting the fan up here with our .gov's new anti-terror legislation (but alas, 'tis our nature to not be confrontational.) SHTF in Vancouver after our Hockey riots (yes folks, that is where our passions lay).

All in all, to me, SHTF means that something has horribly gone wrong and needs to be cleaned up and while the scrub crew does (or doesn't) do its job to the best of it's abilities, we need to take care of ourselves and our families/friends and by extension communities until normalcy (not always a good thing) is restored.

Wrol and teotwawki in the other hand.... Well that's a whole 'nother situation entirely.

[Kesephist]

Well, with all this wealth of information, and the derailments consigned to their proper place, I've pretty much come to this set of thought regarding SHTF/TEOTWAWKI/WROL.

We are due, if not overdue, for something massive and horrible to take place, on at least a national scale. My guesses as to what are two:

A crash so profound that it turns the dollar into nearly worthless scrip.

Some awful event, contrived or otherwise, that tips the regime over into martial law.

I'll readily concede my preps are not nearly as ready as some here. In candor, my thoughts had not wandered over into the prep side until after the 2012 election, and that the Joe Averages were content with their bread and circlejerks :eek: circuses, and never mind that they were not sustainable. So no, I've not had the benefits of years of coalescing and concocting master plans or access to obscenely huge warchests.

The two people I have clued in to my plans understand completely and are unable to participate for reasons of health. They will stay in Vegas when all hell breaks loose and take their chances.

I can't help them.

Because of that, more than a few times I've not been able to sleep, even with consultations with Mr Daniel's good sipping whisky to aid the matter. My musings in such nights have a time or two turned to the line of thought of "Fuggit, selling this stuff off in the morning and burning what can't be sold." The morning leaving me right where I was before, stuff unsold and unburnt.

When I very first set my foot on this road, I'll admit to optimism. "Yes, yes, I'll get all this together, but hopefully we won't need it." Followed by that most dangerous of questions... "What's the worst that could happen?"

Boy did Fate and Murphy answer that.

My thoughts are now of the variety of "I gave it my best shot to tell people. I won't get in the way of their waking up and getting ready at this late date, but damn if I am wasting any more time waking them up."

Aww but k, that makes you a hater and uncompassionate and etc.

Your point?

[Vodin]

I personally don't believe everything will come to a halt and explode into a SHTF situation. I see the government plodding on and making life , liberty and survive ability near non existent. They will eradicate the old thought and train the new thought. They already have malleable minds that they can twist into the proper thought. It is the old thought and upbringing that will be the battle to win.

[Kesephist]

I personally don't believe everything will come to a halt and explode into a SHTF situation. I see the government plodding on and making life , liberty and survive ability near non existent. They will eradicate the old thought and train the new thought. They already have malleable minds that they can twist into the proper thought. It is the old thought and upbringing that will be the battle to win.


A more modern and paraphrased version of Patrick Henry's speech:

Different men often see the same subject in different lights; therefore, it is to be hoped it would not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen, if, entertaining as I do, opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, should speak forth his sentiments freely, and without reserve.

This is no time for idle, worthless, gaudy ceremony.

The question before the country is one of awful moment . It should be considered as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery. And in proportion to the magnitude of the subject, ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfil the great responsibility which is held to God and country. Should one keep back his opinions, at such a time, through fear of giving offence, one should consider himself as guilty of treason towards his country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the majesty of Heaven, revered above all earthly rulers.

It is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth--and listen to the song of that syren, till she transforms us into beasts. Is it the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Were we disposed to be of the number of those, who having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For our part, whatever anguish of spirit it might cost, we should be willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.

There is but one lamp by which our feet should be reliably guided: and that is the lamp of experience. There is no way of judging of the future, but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there had been in the conduct of the present regime, to justify those hopes with which gentlemen had been pleased to solace themselves? Is it that insidious smile with which they hope to sway the electorate? Trust it not, it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss.

There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free--if we mean to preserve inviolate those rights for which we and our ancestors have contended with their all, including their very life's blood--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon, until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must resist! An appeal to the Powers of Heaven, is all that is left us!"

They tell us, sir, that we are weird--unable to cope with what they please to call "business as usual" and "new normal". But when shall we be more able? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and state surveillance be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely on our back, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us, hand and foot? We are not weak, if we make a proper use of those means which have been placed in our power. People armed in the just cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are completely the equal and superior of any force which our enemy can send against us.

The struggle is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, we have no choice. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat, but into base submission and absolute slavery! Our chains are already forged. Their clanking may be heard, in preparation for their eternal attachment!

It is in vain to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, peace, peace--but there is no peace. Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear; or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains, and slavery? May Heaven forbid it for all time!