What problems are you seeing with Low Sulfur Diesel?

[realist]

I want to buy a new truck eventually and it would be a diesel. I also will want to store some fuel for both a tractor and truck. Is anybody seeing problems with using and storing diesel. Recently I attended a hazmat training and some storage issues were brought up. Due to the low sulfur they are finding pin hole leaks in some tanks. Because of the sludge at the bottom of the tank the pin holes basically weep and don't flow until they breakdown more. At that point it could be catastrophic. What happens is when the tank is put under pressure then they will fail under inspection. One question I have is what is the difference, I know one has more sulfur than the other, but just what does that mean, what is the purpose mechanically? Thanks in advance.

[jamesneuen]

Back during the BP oil spill I got sent down to help with the cleanup and they explained the different types to us but that was all raw oil instead of refined fuel oil. The low sulfur was supposed to just be to satisfy the EPA and it increased the cost due to needing more refinement.

When I worked construction the owner kept his tanks there and they sprung a hole but that was because anytime it rained the water would just bead and sit on the bottom. The next tank he got was a brand new one and I welded a "skirt" on it halfway down all the way around so the water would run off instead of holding on underneath. We also put it higher off the concrete so the humidity wouldn't rust it. As far as I know it still works fine. He hasn't called to complain about it yet!

[Willie51]

I just sold my motorhome and it was designed to run on low sulfur diesel only to meet EPA standards. It also had a catalytic converter on the rear of the exhaust so that it burned clean. You could stand at the back of the exhaust and it did not even smell like diesel exhaust at all. I never any problems with mine in 8 years. Over the last couple of years, the new diesel vehicles have a small tank where you have to add a fluid called Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) to meet even stricter EPA standards. Just thought I would mention that.

As far as longer term storage, I used PRI-G additive for mine. They make it for gas and diesel fuels. Diesel fuel without any additive like PRI-G supposed to last about a year, then it can gum up. I have stored fuels using PRI-G and used it two years later.

[ElevenBravo]

My (used to own) '82 K5 with 6.2L Detroit ran on ULS for 5 years with no ill effect that I know of.

Thats all I can contribute, sorry.
EB

[Gunfixr]

The sulphur did several things, but one of the primary ones was that it lubricated the injection system.
The epa came out and demanded much less sulphur, to lower emissions, and vehicles started needing injector system parts sooner than before, as they would wear quicker.
Newer models should be designed to run the lower sulphur content fuel, so this should no longer be a problem.
Diesel fuel is hygroscopic, and will absorb moisture straight from the atmosphere and hold it. Water content, as it gets higher, will cause many problems, including rusting in tanks, and it wont burn as well. There are additives to reduce this, and many, if not most vehicles have a water seperator in the fuel system, either stand alone, or a combined fuel filter water filter.
Also, when it gets real cold, the wax still present in diesel can harden and separate out, called gelling. This thickens the fuel, and it wont burn. It can be reclaimed, but takes time, and a larger tank. In a vehicle, its usually just flushed out.

[ElevenBravo]

Every 2 months or so, Id dump a cheap quart of ATF in the tank when I filled up, that was as close to "injector pump lube" as I could get with ULS.

EB

[Sniper-T]

Up here, most people I know storing diesel use 'diesel-seafoam' I don't know about longevity, as I haven't asked....

[jamesneuen]

How cold are we talking about for separation of that wax? I've seen it hit -15 in indiana with the diesel in above ground tanks and not had any issues come spring.

[Willie51]

How cold are we talking about for separation of that wax? I've seen it hit -15 in indiana with the diesel in above ground tanks and not had any issues come spring.

Up north, they already have the anti-gel additive in it in the tanks. Otherwise at -15 it will gel.

[jamesneuen]

Ah, that explains it.

[ElevenBravo]

Up north, they already have the anti-gel additive in it in the tanks. Otherwise at -15 it will gel.

Correct, possibly.. but not across the board.

Last winter my rig shut down 2 miles from the house with +5degF, I had to walk home at 4:30 in the morning, with wind! (I was headed to work). I had to wait for the truck to thaw out (+34degF) 3 days later, I swapped out both fuel filters and started using winter additive with each tank fill.

Mind you, were talking SWVA, "down here" he hardly EVER see temps like that!


IT SUCKED!

EB

[Willie51]

^EB, you could be right, but they're supposed to. But your problem could have been your fuel filters had water in them, especially the primary (which they will) and the water could have frozen and clogged the flow of fuel. That happens too. :)

[Gunfixr]

In va, where we live, its considered the south, there is no anti gel additive in the fuel.
You find that in the northern states, and out in the west, where it routinely gets much colder in the winter.

Once it gets below freezing, diesel will gel. But, its like water freezing, it is a matter of temps, and time at temp. For instance, a glass of water set out on a cold night freezes much quicker and more thoroughly than say a five gallon bucket full, unless the temps are lower, or for a longer period of time. The fuel itself must get below freezing, so large amounts, or tank types may help slow or prevent it.

[Caveman Survival]

I don't understand half of what's being said here.... Time to starting buying bicycle parts. The extent of my diesel knowledge is when I used to work for the city and work with heavy equipment that used diesel I needed to turn the key to the coil on the display, leave it there for a few seconds, and then start it up. Machine started, and I began my work day lol

[realist]

Thanks gang for all the feedback. I figured it I put it out I would get some good info.

One question so when diesel gells in a vehicle is there any problems which develop when it thaws? That Seafoam stuff is suppose to be good. The stuff I'm talking about is for regular gas vehicles.




Back during the BP oil spill I got sent down to help with the cleanup and they explained the different types to us but that was all raw oil instead of refined fuel oil. The low sulfur was supposed to just be to satisfy the EPA and it increased the cost due to needing more refinement.

Isn't it interesting when they add regulations the costs go up.... I would love to find one of those regulators who is making money off these regulations and prosecute them. Don't ya just love the EPA??????

When I worked construction the owner kept his tanks there and they sprung a hole but that was because anytime it rained the water would just bead and sit on the bottom. The next tank he got was a brand new one and I welded a "skirt" on it halfway down all the way around so the water would run off instead of holding on underneath. We also put it higher off the concrete so the humidity wouldn't rust it. As far as I know it still works fine. He hasn't called to complain about it yet!

This is what I was talking about from the Hazmat guys. The tanks are in bunkers and are off the ground. The tanks will develop pin hole leaks but the leaks will self seal so long as there is not too much pressure in the tank because the sludge at the bottom of the tank plugs it. When ever the hazmat guys test the tanks they put them under pressure. In order to fix it they now have people come in and sleeve the tank. This problem even has been found in the the double walled tanks.

[jamesneuen]

I dunno what to tell you then. We always just thought it was from the water outside because they only appeared on the bottom. Though if you get water in your tank, the oil would float on top and water would sink to the bottom and just sit and rust. Might install a valve at the bottom to pull a bit out every now and then?

[Gunfixr]

When it thaws? The fuel doesnt freeze. When the temps get cold enough, long enough, for the fuel itself to get below freezing, its still a liquid, but the paraffin which has not been refined out will solidify, or semi solidify, thickening the fuel, or more likely, having this gel like substance, which is paraffin, suspended in the fuel.
Since it is somewhat solid, it wont flow through fuel systems, and it doesnt burn, or not in an engine anyway.

Really, we are kind of overthinking this some. In the south, southwest, and southeast, where winter temps get below freezing, but for relatively short times, diesel fuel doesnt have antigel additives. In the north, and midwest, where temps get much further below freezing, and stay there for longer periods, the fuel will have the additives from the refinery. Fuel that is moving is usually ok, its standstill fuel that is more prone. For instance, truckers will leave the engine running overnight for several reasons, and one will be that since the fuel lines feeding the engine are relatively narrow, that will be the first place that the fuel gels, but while running, the fuel doesnt sit long enough for it to happen. Kind of like a running stream will not freeze until a much lower temp than a very slow stream. Large quantities represent a thermal mass that cools much slower than the air surounding it, so a tank full of fuel will take either a much lower temp, or much longer at a slightly higher temp to gel than say, a drinking glass full left out in the same conditions. Overnight does not usually meet this condition, and even if daytime temps dont get high enough, sunlight does some warming by radiation heating. In the areas that are cold enough to get past this they already add antigel.

If you are concerned, add some antigel. I just used to add some kerosene. For my trucks 20 gal tank, id add maybe a quart, eyeballing it. I never had a problem, i live here on the coast of va, south of eb. It could sit for days or weeks of frozen nights and barely over frozen days without issue.
To bring back gelled fuel, kerosene was added, but i dont remember the ratio. Then, you just let it sit for some time, which i also dont remember. I sold my diesel close to 10yrs ago now. The kerosene dissolves the paraffin back in, as it is a couple steps higher up the refine chain, and doesnt have paraffin in it.
Kerosene also acts as a kind of octane booster for diesel, but diesel burn units are measured in cetane. It will give a bit more power, but will make the engine run a bit warmer. Not an issue in winter, but i didnt add it in summer. Also, too much deducts from the lubrication of the pump even more, and iss going to add to compression pressure, which is already high on diesels.
Not sure how this would affect newer computer controlled diesels, mine was made before diesels had computers.
Mine was old school. Cardboard with small cutout in front of radiator in winter, glow plugs. Glow plugs die, use ether until you had money for more, then have to detox it from ether dependency.
Nothing like the smell of diesel fumes in the morning.
Man, those were the days.

Somewhere i used to have a list that went from crude oil to whatever was last, in order as it came out from refining.

[bacpacker]

^EB, you could be right, but they're supposed to. But your problem could have been your fuel filters had water in them, especially the primary (which they will) and the water could have frozen and clogged the flow of fuel. That happens too. :)

Filters will freeze without a doubt and they do collect water. I had an old Toyota Celica and I ended up keeping a couple of spare fuel filters in the trunk. Really haven't had much issue out of any vehicle since then with water freezing. DF is much worse for gathering water.