Dug up two of my caches today and results not so good

[helomech]

They have been buried for a few years now. I used pvc schedule 80 pipe and sealed the bottom with pvc cement. The top was a screw on design. I used thread sealant and wax. Everything was inside vacuum sealed bags, and that was the only reason I didn't loose everything. I had about 3 inches of water in the bottom of the tube. Some corrosion on some of the ammo, will now just use it for for target ammo. Going to pass the worst of it through the media to polish it a bit. The fire started and lighters did not make it. All the magnesium fell off the fire starters and both lighters are locked up. Compass, knives, and so on are fine. I filled all the vacuum bags with rice, but there was still some moisture on the paper ammo boxes. Phone was dead so did not get any pics. I will try to get some pics when I open up the other caches. Hope the guns are fine, it is pouring down raining now, so no more digging them up today.

[Sniper-T]

wow!! just wow! I am way interested in hearing about the entire process from selecting area to disappointment. That is such a catastrophic failure that it blows me away. sux dude!. I KNOW you are still established, so not as bad as it could be... but still... we all have considered this. Document well. let us dissect. we can all learn here.

first Q. was it under the water table?

first emote. :(

sorry to hear bud! major wastage!

But ALL!!!! think of this as a reason to check your cache's if you have them

[helomech]

Not much waste yet, I can still use the ammo. Most of it is fine, some of it has a little corrosion on it. I will run it through the brass media for a few minutes to clean up. Will still be able to use it for training, just won't depend on it.

They where both way above water line, by at least 50 feet. Top of a iron ore hill, nothing near them to cause issues. Just really glad I had rice in them, and decided to check them.

[helomech]

Well I had about 50 rounds of wolf 9mm and they are messed up. I fired 10 rounds had 1 with dead primer, and two weak. One very weak see pics. Those are getting thrown away. The high point is the test weapon. No way I was going to use my sig. Fired about 20 of my brass 9mm reloads and they ran perfectly.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/helomech1973/guns/13087363_10201695810753280_118919138619354367_n_zp s5kzzvqqw.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/helomech1973/media/guns/13087363_10201695810753280_118919138619354367_n_zp s5kzzvqqw.jpg.html)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/helomech1973/guns/13076716_10201695810873283_5092700832565181223_n_z psbwihkp8n.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/helomech1973/media/guns/13076716_10201695810873283_5092700832565181223_n_z psbwihkp8n.jpg.html)

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Here are the 30 carbine ammo that got corrosion. About 500 of them are in perfect shape going to fire some of them later. About 100 to 150 have some corrosion on them. This is the worst one I found.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/helomech1973/guns/13124737_10201695810393271_7090062036952476441_n_z psvnzolkrl.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/helomech1973/media/guns/13124737_10201695810393271_7090062036952476441_n_z psvnzolkrl.jpg.html)

The only bag of 30 carbine that has some corrosion

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/helomech1973/guns/13100965_10201695810553275_1459682432051748593_n_z psspt8hyd8.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/helomech1973/media/guns/13100965_10201695810553275_1459682432051748593_n_z psspt8hyd8.jpg.html)

[Vodin]

Thank you for the detailed info Helo. Good thing you have found out before an issue arose.

[helomech]

Thanks. Most of the 30 carbine came out great with a few minutes in the vibration cleaner. Going to fire some this weekend to see how they do. Don't think i will have any issues with them. So far all the 5.56 and 7.62X39, and 7.62X51 are all fine. No issues.

[bacpacker]

Sorry to hear about this. I am glad you found out before you needed to rely on them. Being above the waterline, what do you suppose caused the issue? Any thoughts on why just the .30 cal and not the other ammo?

[helomech]

The 30 carbine ammo was on the bottom and sitting in water. Not sure how the water got in, it makes no sense to me. The tube threaded portion was sealed with thread compound, and then wax was put on top of the seam. Guess I should pull them up and see if I can find anything.

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The only ammo that is not working is the steel cased tula 9mm ammo. It was in the same package as the brass reloads, and they work fine. Just a little corrosion on the case, but does not effect function. I guess the steel cased ammo is not sealed as good as the brass cased stuff.

[bacpacker]

Steel vs brass I can see having issues.
Just makes me wonder if the moisture was seeping in through the PVC? I know we have had some plastic conduit that had been buried and was full of water. Makes me think plastic isn't so great for keeping things dry.

[helomech]

This is the real thick pvc pipe. Heck they keep water in, all my pipes are pvc. Can't see how they could leak. I think it has to be the threaded portion, or condensation. Trying to figure out how to remove the moisture from the air before I close it up. Maybe I can put a connection on it to pull a vacuum on the container.

[bacpacker]

Threads are likely, but condensation...I don't know, even if it was 100% humidity, how would you get 3" in there. That's quite a lot of water.

[helomech]

They where there for about 3 years. I still have two more to dig up.

[bacpacker]

That's a head scratcher for sure. I'll talk to the electricians at work and see if they figured out what caused their problems.

[Stormfeather]

Ive had this issue before myself, and its usually the threads is where the weak point is. As for the bags, Ive used the vacuum sealer on them, and then double bagged them with both bags being vacu-sealed, make sure you use desiccant in both layers. Its what I had to do to finally make it work.
Very interested to see the rest of your analysis as well!

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That's a head scratcher for sure. I'll talk to the electricians at work and see if they figured out what caused their problems.

I ended up just sealing them and then coating the seam with waterproof caulking, all I had to do after it was said and done was cut the caulking away and didnt have an issue after that.

[Illini Warrior]

not a bit surprised - hydrostatic ground pressure is a bitch ... makes me laugh like hell when guys talk about 5 gallon bucket caches in high water table areas - you think 3" is bad - how'd you like 3 gallons ....

either cap both ends with regular pipe caps and expect to saw an end open .... or .... cap one or both ends with test caps - just knock out the centers with a knife or gun butt .... pipe cement binds the plastic together - pipe thread dope isn't an effective sealer - that's not it's purpose ....

forget about using rice as your desiccant - get a pound of silica crystals ...

[Kesephist]

Illini's got it, I think, as re: two cemented caps. My own self, if it were possible, one cap with a fitting to draw a vacuum in the entire tube, with a rubber flap on the underside, or the fitting filled with a solid rubber plug and the vacuum drawn via some large bore needle. Coat the whole cap with PVC cement once the vacuum is drawn and jam on the next sized larger cap. A really sticky silicone sealer around the cap's seam with the pipe would fill the bill. Opening day, cut away the sealer and what ever form of cement solvent, or a chunk of hacksaw to cut off the cap. Inelegant but workable.

[Gunfixr]

A good friend of mine buried a cache about a dozen years ago.
Out of curiosity, it was dug up about 2yrs ago.
In it, was a mosin Nagant, about 400rds of ammo, a cleaning kit, a knife, and I think a couple other small items. The rifle was covered with cosmoline, and wrapped, but I don't think any other particular precautions were taken.
The container was one of those burial tubes you find online at the survival type websites, with one solid end, and one threaded end.
All items were placed inside, a small lit candle was placed inside, and the cap threaded on. Caulk sealant was packed into the threads prior to threading the cap on, and a bead was added around the end seam to the cap. It was then wrapped with usgi duct tape over the bead.
10yrs later, it was unearthed. My friends brother had wanted a mosin, so he had told him where it was buried, and that he could have it, as he was curious about how it had fared anyway. His brother took it to the shop where he works, where he and several of his friends/coworkers proceeded to open it. The tape was removed, cut off, and then they tried to get the cap off. So much sealant, couldn't be unscrewed, so it had to be cut off. As my friend told me, his brother had quite a job getting into the tube.
The rifle was perfect, just as packed. The ammo was also perfect. The knife had just a bit of darkness in some spots, or maybe small amount of surface rust, IIRC. The cleaning kit was fine. There was a spoonful or two of water down in the bottom.
I do not know it's relative depth to water table when buried, but my friend is pretty particular, I do not think he would have put it down into the water table.

Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk

[helomech]

I really want to have the top be able to unscrew. I might try silicone next time.

[jamesneuen]

Or, the caches I stowed I put about a foot of rocks in the bottom of the hole I dug to try and remove any standing water from when it rained. Maybe you should just allow for 3+ inches of water at the bottom of each and put a spacer of some kind in place to raise the content height

[helomech]

Had a wing chun and kali seminar today so I just got home. Ran out and dug up another cache and it was perfect. No moisture at all. Here are some pics.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/helomech1973/guns/13087356_10201698870189764_147601289913926866_n_zp stxyttuax.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/helomech1973/media/guns/13087356_10201698870189764_147601289913926866_n_zp stxyttuax.jpg.html)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/helomech1973/guns/13091910_10201698869989759_1060450606250150167_n_z ps6b6le3rp.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/helomech1973/media/guns/13091910_10201698869989759_1060450606250150167_n_z ps6b6le3rp.jpg.html)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/helomech1973/guns/13100700_10201698869829755_2322017725689590449_n_z psrubvctym.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/helomech1973/media/guns/13100700_10201698869829755_2322017725689590449_n_z psrubvctym.jpg.html)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/helomech1973/guns/13055512_10201698869629750_9153505713508306930_n_z pswetpr97y.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/helomech1973/media/guns/13055512_10201698869629750_9153505713508306930_n_z pswetpr97y.jpg.html)

[bacpacker]

How many caches have you dug up now? 2? 3? Did you only have one that failed? I would examine that cache very closely. Sounds to me like something was just a little different with it.

[helomech]

3 so far, only one was dry. I sealed all of them up the same way.

[bacpacker]

Damn, that just don't make any sense to me. How different were locations? Or were they in the same general area?

[helomech]

About 150 yards apart. Soil is very similar, the two that had water where on top of hills, the one that was dry was way at the bottom of a hill. The dry one was in better soil, but not much better.

[Gunfixr]

You know, from the pics, it's upright. It also has an "inner" cap, meaning the cap threads down into the inside of the end.
This is not conducive to shedding water. Rain will sit on the flat top, laying on those threads. If there is a way in, water will find it.
Also, if it's as close to the surface as it appears, and the sun hits that area, the top will warm up in the sun, and cool at night.
A ring always expands more than a plug.
The air at the top will add slight pressure, if it can escape, the cooling at night will cause a vacuum, sucking air back in.
Or, some rainwater that was on top.

At least that's a theory.

Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk

[T70]

About 150 yards apart. Soil is very similar, the two that had water where on top of hills, the one that was dry was way at the bottom of a hill. The dry one was in better soil, but not much better.

I was curious how this would turn out ever since we talked about it. It makes me wonder though how the water got in...the way it was sealed I really thought it would be fine.

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You know we've had way more rain the last few years than normal here too though...

[helomech]

You know, from the pics, it's upright. It also has an "inner" cap, meaning the cap threads down into the inside of the end.
This is not conducive to shedding water. Rain will sit on the flat top, laying on those threads. If there is a way in, water will find it.
Also, if it's as close to the surface as it appears, and the sun hits that area, the top will warm up in the sun, and cool at night.
A ring always expands more than a plug.
The air at the top will add slight pressure, if it can escape, the cooling at night will cause a vacuum, sucking air back in.
Or, some rainwater that was on top.

At least that's a theory.

Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk

It is about 8-12 inches below ground level. Only one gets full sun, the rest only get limited sun. I want the threads up, that will allow me to get out some supplies and re close. When I get all the water out, I will use sealant to close them up next time, instead of the liquid plumber stuff I used last time.

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I was curious how this would turn out ever since we talked about it. It makes me wonder though how the water got in...the way it was sealed I really thought it would be fine.

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You know we've had way more rain the last few years than normal here too though...

My theory was that the iron ore would not allow much water to penetrate to the tube. Guess I was wrong.

[jamesneuen]

I would store them with the plug side down so if water got in, it could also get out. then just pull it right up out of the hole.

[helomech]

There is no way it is just pulling up. Once the ground packs around them, you have to dig them up to get them out.

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If i an put a plug on a water system that will hold 60 psi, I know I can put the cap on this with no pressure. Must have just not sealed the top well.

[helomech]

Well checked 2 more and they where perfectly dry. So 2 out of 5 had water in them, just happened to be the first two I checked. The last two I had to pull out of the ground (damn that was some work) to unscrew the cap. I used pipe dope on them and it took me about 45 minutes to get into them. That is unacceptable. So instead of pipe dope I used the thread tape. I will just check on them a little more often.

[jamesneuen]

maybe try to melt wax around the edges of the pipe end? heat with a hair dryer till warm, then smother it on so it sinks in. Or try what K said and put a thick ring of caulk around the edge after its screwed on, then you can just cut it off with a knife.

[Sniper-T]

All good info, and food for thought.

How about a condom of sorts. once you do whatever you choose (Tape/silicone/?) place a plastic bag or something over from the top down, like rolling on a condom, and tape it around the pipe that would also ensure that any water from the top would not have access to the threads.

Sucking the air out and creating a vacuum concerns me, as that would be creating a suction that will always be trying to draw moisture in. It may compromise your seal, and once the seal is compromised, if there is water around it'll suck it in like a straw.

How about displacing the air with Argon before you cap it?

[helomech]

Good idea. Going to see if I can put something over the top.

[Vodin]

Pardon the terminology or lack thereof. Is there not a way to place threads on the inside of a cap and on the PVC tube? This way the threads are facing down and water will need to go back up the threads to get in.. and then to halt that place a bead of silicon around the base of the cap.

This would allow you to keep it buried and still have access for multiple times.

And if you made a 'vacuum' in the cache I would think it would draw water in. Place a bicycle tire valve on it and put pressure into the container. And or you can add ORings.

Pictures make it easier for me to contemplate possibilities, this is what I meant when I stated PVC Caps
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pvc+cap+images&t=ffsb&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barrplastics.com%2Fassets%2Fi mages%2FproductMain%2FSDF-Cap.jpg

[helomech]

Pressure would not get rid of the moisture in the air, vacuum would remove at least some of it. But after seeing the other 3 caches with zero moisture in them, I don't think it is from condensation. The 2 with water must not have been sealed very good.

[Vodin]

http://www.instructables.com/id/Waterproof-Underground-PVC-Cache/step4/Plug-it-the-right-way/

[helomech]

Cool, going to see if they make them big enough. Thanks

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4 inch is the biggest I can find so far.

[Sniper-T]

8"

https://www.zorocanada.com/i/G2015106/?gclid=CK3r1fisvMwCFQiUaQodtC8KYw&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Vodin]

Not happy about the price but thank you for the further bit of information Sniper-T.

[helomech]

Wow, way more expensive that I thought it would be. But thanks

[Sniper-T]

Little cheaper here:

http://www.petersenproducts.com/142-8_pipe_plug.aspx

Or, simplified:

http://www.petersenproducts.com/143-9_pipe_plug.aspx

http://www.petersenproducts.com/142-0a_pipe_plug.aspx

[realist]

This is perfect thanks for the post guys. Yesterday I was at the farm supply looking at pipe. Just a simple end cap for six inch pipe was $32. I am trying to look at the various options which you have given me some. I too was looking at vacuum sealing each bag put in. However my old seal a meal doesn't do the best job. I have a friend who has one from Cabela's which double seals each bag, that is what I am getting. It is too bad there is not some way to over-pressure the pipe then this would help keep it dry.

I do like the idea of covering the top of the pipe with a second plastic or rubber seal. I would think something like an tire inner tube cut and sealed with rubber glue to make a sleeve over the top would work. If you wanted to make sure the ends were truly sealed then you could seal both ends and put it under pressure. Then just cut it in half and you have two sleeves.

So what do you find to be the ideal size. I know it depends upon what you want to put inside. However for general use I am looking at four inches or bigger. Which is better PVC or ABS?? Thanks

[Vodin]

Found these at Home Depot
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y534/Vodin136/IMG_1131_zpsol1pl3fl.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Vodin136/media/IMG_1131_zpsol1pl3fl.jpg.html)

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y534/Vodin136/IMG_1133_zps0latjrgf.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Vodin136/media/IMG_1133_zps0latjrgf.jpg.html)

[Socalman]

This thread is also good for for to check some of your food storage preps. I do not know about everyone else, I have some storage in three areas and generally check all areas on a regular basis. Since my primary prep is for earthquake I know that I could lose a structure and not be able to get what is in it without great difficulty. If we have a SHTF situation caused by something else, I can consolidate my stores quickly to be in one central place that can be more easily protected.

[bacpacker]

I got to talk to a couple of electricians at work today about underground conduits. They said that every time they work on one that is open to the inside of a building they fill with water from condensation. If the conduit has sealer on both ends, anything inside is always dry as a bone.
I don't think condensation would have been your issue with them buried.

[Vodin]

When something sticks in the mind..

I have found your device at 6"
https://www.amazon.com/IPS-83596-6-Inch-Mechanical-Test/dp/B00I8M6S3K?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

[helomech]

Sweet thanks Vodin.

[Illini Warrior]

OPPPPPPPPPPs >>> someone forgot to make a map


https://www.foxnews.com/us/arizona-homeowners-gardening-buried-duffel-bag-guns

[Gunfixr]

Lmao, nice......