Greenhouse

[jamesneuen]

When the wife and I move up north in a few months she wants to buy a house and my only condition was that it have at least 4+ acres with it.

I want to build a greenhouse as an outbuilding. But I have a few concerns.

1. I don't think it could handle the snow they get in Northern Michigan some years. I have frequently had to go on the In-laws roof and shovel it off for them.

2. I don't think it would stay warm enough when the high's are still in the negatives some days.

3. Not sure how I would heat it reliably if it doesn't stay cold enough

4. If plants "bloom" during dead of winter how would I pollinate them apart from doing every single one by hand?

5. Does anyone know how well it would work to incorporate a small bee hive into the side? During the summer, keep both sides open, then during the winter when most hives retreat and "sleep" only keep open the greenhouse side?

[bacpacker]

You have valid concerns. Snow loads that far north could be an Issue and where you mentioned going has tremendous snows. To me the easiest and most consistant heat would be from using a fire stoked boiler. I have saw lots of them on my trips to Mich. It is a little building where the fire is built and the heat is carried into the house. A guy I work with down here just bought one from the Amish and really liked it this past winter. I would think they might do the trick in a green house, and may be able to split it and heat your house as well.
Something else to look at are Wallipinis. Basically a greenhouse that has some or most of the walls underground. Some I have looked at have logs to support the roof/loads. I'd have to look back and see what the roof materials used were. But might be something worth looking into. They are in use in different areas around the world. I also think I recall seeing a thread the MIT had started a while back. Here is a link on the interweb.

http://permaculturenews.org/2014/02/05/robs-modified-walipini/

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=walipini&qpvt=wallipini&qpvt=wallipini&qpvt=wallipini&FORM=IGRE

I am interested in seeing folks comments on this one.

[jamesneuen]

Yeah, I've thought about partially digging out where I want the garden, especially the walkways because of my back. I'm just not sure about the water tables where I would move and if they would accommodate something like that.

If I did make it completely above ground the north wall would probably end up being straight up with all of the slant on the one side so hopefully any REALLY heavy snows would slide off. I just think using standard windows would be a disaster because of the sill on each creating a ridge to hold the snow......

[bacpacker]

And use the snow as insulation. Not sure how to get around the sills. But check the link with the pics, there are all kinds of different types.
Also do a google search. I found some that were from Minnesota. I would bet they get as much snow as you will. but it may be dryer to.

[eagle326]

You have valid concerns. Snow loads that far north could be an Issue and where you mentioned going has tremendous snows. To me the easiest and most consistant heat would be from using a fire stoked boiler. I have saw lots of them on my trips to Mich. It is a little building where the fire is built and the heat is carried into the house. A guy I work with down here just bought one from the Amish and really liked it this past winter. I would think they might do the trick in a green house, and may be able to split it and heat your house as well.
Something else to look at are Wallipinis. Basically a greenhouse that has some or most of the walls underground. Some I have looked at have logs to support the roof/loads. I'd have to look back and see what the roof materials used were. But might be something worth looking into. They are in use in different areas around the world. I also think I recall seeing a thread the MIT had started a while back. Here is a link on the interweb.

http://permaculturenews.org/2014/02/05/robs-modified-walipini/

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=walipini&qpvt=wallipini&qpvt=wallipini&qpvt=wallipini&FORM=IGRE

I am interested in seeing folks comments on this one.

I concur with son's assessment .

[jamesneuen]

I saw some that looked like they had some type of polycarb sheeting that was used for the roof. My main concern with that is how brittle it would get in the cold and yellowing after just a few years in the sun. Plus its stupid expensive.

If I put a heater in there that only kicked on at a certain degree or something I wouldn't have to worry about the snow so much.

OMG I'm an IDIOT!!!

As I am sitting here typing I understood what you meant about using the snow as insulation Bacpacker, If I put all of the "roof" facing the north side I could just use normal damn roofing! Shovel it off when I need to and leave it to pile up on that side against the wind. Like cutting an A-frame house in half. Then keep the straight up and down side toward the south and install all the windows directly vertical! I've been thinking about the wallpini system in the conventional sense of how everyone else has been building them.

Well there is the construction aspect solved, I would just have to make a cheap version of it the first year to see if it works. Now to address all my other problems.

[bacpacker]

Your roof system thought is a good one. Not what I was thinking. I'm betting that would work, taking in mind your sun angle that far north.

[jamesneuen]

Your roof system thought is a good one. Not what I was thinking. I'm betting that would work, taking in mind your sun angle that far north.

Regardless, your comment provoked the train of thought so you get the credit. WHOOOO!

Then during the summer I could just open the upper windows to let the heat out and BOOM, perfect ventilation system and it won't even matter if it rains in.

Shit, it just occurred to me that I will have to bury a water line below the frost level to get a water spigot. I think I will wait and record the first year temperatures though.

[bacpacker]

If we ever buy more property I will spend at least one year looking at and measuring lots of things. Wind speed and direction, angle of the sun thru the year, rainfall totals at various points, temps, frost at various points. I'm sure there are many others. This would be important for orienting your house, barn, greenhouse. Placement of gardens, orchard, etc. Lots of things to take into account. It will be worth the effort down the road.

[Sniper-T]

frost level is irrelevant. you just need to run a heat trace in your waterline to keep it open and you're styling.

Window sills, can be modified with a piece of tin or plexiglass. cut a piece the width of the window and ~4" more than the window sill is deep, secure one end flush with the outer edge of the sill, and the other rests up against the window, making a slide, of sorts for the snow.

[Vodin]

I can answer Question 4.

I run an Aquaponic system in the basement. Should you select a plant that needs to be pollinated you have a couple of choices. Use wind currents (fans) or hand pollinate. I know that these 2 methods work for certain plants. Peppers self pollinate nothing is needing to be done and I have about 10 Anaheim and 8 Jalapeno's wanting to be picked right now.

[Vodin]

Doing another run through of this post I might add this sun light and where it shines is important to know for all seasons. There are systems in this FB site I run that would meet your back needs, size and watering methods.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/650138768462013/

Any questions are welcome.

[jamesneuen]

ST, doesn't a heat trace rely on electricity? I wanted it buried so that even if the electricity went out it would still be fine.

I have an alternative source of electricity in mind to power vital items and want to eliminate as many needed ones as possible.

[jamesneuen]

Vodin, by back needs I assume you mean not bending? lol

I joined and added you. I am trying to stay away from the aquaponics route because of needing the pumps and electricity to move the water, plus the fish food and all. Just doesn't seem to be sustainable to me if the lights go out. I don't plan on being able to use solar panels forever.

[Sniper-T]

yes, a heat trace is electric, but that can mean 12V as well. Michigan isn't that far from here, and similar geographically. In the summer we have our warm thawed ground, sitting atop of permafrost. In the winter the permafrost comes up as the frost goes down until they meet, and the earth is frozen. there is no 'safe' zone. Pipes need to be heat traced or have water flowing to not freeze.

[Vodin]

LOL bending and the back came to mind jamesneuen.

I was taking the position of how to pollinate in the winter. Nothing Aqua or Hydro. Just relating it to my setup and what needs to be done since it has the same issue no bug pollination.

Fan the flowers, tap the main stalk of the plant or take a QTip to the flowers. Those are the methods that I use.

[jamesneuen]

I figured that manual pollination would be needed. Now if I can just get those slutty hybrids to keep it in their pants and not give me watermelon-peppers, we should be fine.