What Illness Scares You the Most Post SHTF?

[mollypup]

This is my first thread! I thought I'd start it because I was over at another thread about dental problems and that's what scares me the most right now about postSHTF illnesses. I know there's a ton of physical ailments that are horrible to endure without medical intervention, but for some reason having one's teeth go bad scares me the most because of the intense pain. I had a tooth go bad about a year ago and I never felt anything so painful in my life as that. I couldn't wait to have the root canal done! So, there's my most fearful fear, what's yours and why?

[RedJohn]

Teeth can be dealt with fairly easily. Anything that requires surgery would be a problem.

[izzyscout21]

My 2 year old twins are on very specialized heart medications. What scares me most is not being able to access, substitute, or compound those medications. I can have all the food, water, ammo, guns, gear, etc in the world, but it doesn't help my kids any if they can't get the medications they need.

[mitunnelrat]

I have a friend with a similar dilemma, izzy. His son needs anti-seizure medicine that is incredibly expensive, that he isn't allowed to buy extra of anyway, and can only get a finite amount of through his insurance Its impossible to skip a dose on to "save one here and there" too. We've been back and forth on this issue a time or two, with no good answers. Is there anything you've come up with that you can share?

[RedJohn]

My 2 year old twins are on very specialized heart medications. What scares me most is not being able to access, substitute, or compound those medications. I can have all the food, water, ammo, guns, gear, etc in the world, but it doesn't help my kids any if they can't get the medications they need.

I am on blood pressure medicine. I am told that I may suffer sudden death if I suddenly stop taking them. Having enough of them in advance to be able to cut down little by little is almost impossible. Nobody want to prescribe more than 3 months in advance.

[bacpacker]

RJ So am I. I have finally figured out the best I can do with the insurance. I can receive an order at 18 days before the 3 months are totally up. This gives me almost 3 weeks at every order. Like MI mentioned I skip a day here and there to add to the stock.

[JustAPrepper]

I'm with Molly on this one, probably because I've experienced little else. I've never even broken a bone. I did have two major surgeries a few years ago, a Hysterectomy that went awry and needed a follow up surgery but I was under doctor's care the whole time and was well medicated. But, I've always had an aversion to the dentist so I floss and brush several times a day. Having my teeth go bad in a SHTF situation would really freak me out.

Chicken Pox also come to mind. I'm not sure if anyone remembers or experienced "Pox Parties". It's where mother's used to put their kids with friend or neighbor kids who had the Pox so the kid could get them and get them out of the way. I went to at least one and never caught them. Catching the Pox as an adult can be fatal so I steer clear of anyone I know who has a kid with Chicken Pox.

[ravensgrove]

This is off topic slightly..but just this week I had occassion to hear of two diseases I didn't think really bothered people any more: Hand, Foot and Mouth and Scarlett Fever. There was a break out of hand, foot and mouth at a kindergarten 30 mins from me took out the whole class and a break out of scarlett fever at our local hs. Two kids are in the hospital.
More than any other bizarre way s could htf...disease scares me the most.
As for what am I afraid of....anything that causes high fevers, which we take for granted being able to reduce now so easily with over the counter meds.

[izzyscout21]

I have a friend with a similar dilemma, izzy. His son needs anti-seizure medicine that is incredibly expensive, that he isn't allowed to buy extra of anyway, and can only get a finite amount of through his insurance Its impossible to skip a dose on to "save one here and there" too. We've been back and forth on this issue a time or two, with no good answers. Is there anything you've come up with that you can share?

I'm still tring to figure it out myself. the heart meds are compounded and only last a couple weeks at a time. So that basically leaves me learning how to compound and "shopping" should the SHTF. Problem is, eventually the number of places I can "shop" at is going to be next to none.

The Lasix and antibiotics I'm not so worried about. Its the enalapril. I have about a 6 month supply of the blood pressure meds used to take, I'll have to see if those han be used in any way.

[Sniper-T]

Probably infection, say from an injury. I have a bunch of antibiotics, but they don't last forever, and it doesn't take much to get an infected cut now, never mind post SHTF esp if there will be serious water rationing.

[Gunfixr]

The disease that makes zombies.


ETA: Oohhhh, post #69 !!!!!!!!!

[Stormfeather]

The following is all hypothetic mental meandering. . . .meant only for educational purposes.

ok folks, once again, stock up on meds! If you cant get the Rx kind, work the angles! Veterinary meds are all pharmaceutical grade, and DONT need a Rx to get! Heres a supposed link for you for a source!

Cal Vet Supply - your source for Antibiotics, Frontline, Syringes and Veterinary Supplies (http://www.calvetsupply.com/)

Pay special attention to the Antibiotics section, and look thru some of the descriptions! You may very well be surprised!

Now there are other options out there as well, the "supposedly" most reputable one that I "would" use if I was to purchase such products would be Pain-relief-pharm (http://www.pain-relief-pharm.biz/) .

The reason I say this is because if you dont have a prescription available to fax to them, they can even do a consultation over the phone with a doctor or even online. This from their website. . ."Where a prescription is required, we will require the prescription to be faxed to us. If you do not have a prescription, we may be able to refer you to a physician who can visit you or do an online or telephone consultation with you and then issue a prescription." I do so like companies that will go that extra mile to help out people who are sick or incapacitated. :D

Once again, this post is only meant to be used for educational purposes, and is in no way suggesting you visit any of the sites listed.

[mollypup]

That's some really great information Stormfeather! Thank-you!!! :D

[LUNCHBOX]

I believe any and all illnesses will be scary in a SHTF scenario, and I don't even want to talk about a ear or tooth ache.

Storm, I agree...I had a buddy (a medic) say the same thing about vet Meds from a local farm store---Tractor something or other.

Also, as already stated. Take this information as gossip and unproven.

[TEOTWAWKI13]

Stormfeather, good info, my wife's a recently former vet employee. Most of their meds, antibiotics, etc are = to human form. In fact, pfizer was their biggest supplier. Go figure. (insert viagra joke here).

Mollypup, I'm with you on teeth. That's a pain I can't handle, and I've got a pretty high thresh-hold. Another that concerns me is the staph infections. Nasty stuff.

[mitunnelrat]

A staph infection almost killed me when I was 5, the result of scratching when I had the chicken pox. I got to one at the back of my neck that my parent's didn't see past my hair, and it was all down hill from there. I've got a nice scar there now. I'm also cringing just relating this, and its been almost 30 years since then... So yeah, staph infection would be horrible without medical care available.

[Stormfeather]

I believe any and all illnesses will be scary in a SHTF scenario, and I don't even want to talk about a ear or tooth ache.

Storm, I agree...I had a buddy (a medic) say the same thing about vet Meds from a local farm store---Tractor something or other.

Also, as already stated. Take this information as gossip and unproven.

Alex, I would like to solve the puzzle! I will say. . . T S C???? *ding ding ding ding!*

Also a hypothetically great source is you have one near you that carries meds for farm animals! Your local __________ Farm & Fleet.

[LUNCHBOX]

Alex, I would like to solve the puzzle! I will say. . . Tractor Supply Company? *ding ding ding ding!*

Also a hypothetically great source is you have one near you that carries meds for farm animals! Your local __________ Farm & Fleet.

Thanks Stormfeather, I knew the name....I just don't like name dropping in the same thread I hint at buying meds for my "cough, cough" dog.

[Stormfeather]

Ahh, gotcha, hope the dog feels better!

Will amend post to reflect as such!

[Sniper-T]

The post by Stormfeather reminded me of an article I saved:

Shamelessly borrowed, (originally from survivalblog a few years back)


A Doctor's Thoughts on Antibiotics, Expiration Dates, and TEOTWAWKI,
by Dr. Bones


As a recently-retired physician who is married to a nurse-midwife, my preparedness group looks to us as the post-TEOTWAWKI hospital and medical staff. Medical progress has been exponential and even just the last decade of scientific breakthroughs can equal a century of improvement in medical treatments, surgical techniques and pharmaceuticals. However, in the years (months?) ahead, the crumbling of the infrastructure and devolution of society in general will very likely throw us back to a medical system that existed in the 19th Century.

Let’s take an example: When the U.S. was a young nation, the average woman could expect to be pregnant 10-12 times during her reproductive lifetime (no reliable means of birth control). One out of four women would not survive the pregnancy, either from issues relating to blood loss from miscarriage or childbirth or Infection (no antibiotics) following same. A myriad of other complications occurred which are treatable today but weren’t back then. I collect old medical books, and even relatively modern obstetric textbooks devoted entire chapters on how to crush a fetus’ skull in order to expedite its removal from a critically ill mother, with instruments that clearly had no other purpose. When childbirth was successful, she could expect perhaps 3-4 of her children to survive to become adults, on average, with many minor children succumbing to simple infections that had no known effective treatment at the time.

This is the grim reality that we, in modern times, will face when the inevitable happens and current medical technology and treatments are unavailable to us.

There is an interesting post-TEOTWAWKI series by History Channel called “After Armageddon” which can be viewed on YouTube. Interestingly enough, it doesn’t appear on History Channel’s list of shows). In it, a family seeks refuge in the aftermath of an apocalyptic event. The father of the family, who is a trained EMT, falls sick and dies from a simply cut on his hand because the antibiotics ran out. It shows that the lack of accumulated stores of antibiotics could mean a shortened life span for even the most prepared individual.

Given the new situation that we will have thrust upon us, it behooves every aware individual to begin to stockpile medications that will be needed in the future, and to become trained one way or another in basic and disaster first aid. Even if your group has a designated “medic”, you have an obligation to be able to handle medical issues in a catastrophic scenario for the sake of your group and your family. Just as the designated “medic” should be trained to handle security issues and should accumulate food and other supplies, so should you accumulate medications and medical supplies. Cross-training is essential for when the medic needs a medic!
Accumulating medications may be simple when it comes to procuring aspirin and other non-prescription drugs but may be problematic for those who cannot write their own prescriptions or don’t have a relationship with a physician who can. I would like to focus on the issue of procurement of antibiotics for the treatment of infection in this essay, as there are already a number of good essays on this site that discusses various aspects of medical care in the post-SHTF era. I heartily recommend that everyone read these in detail.

For all intents and purposes, it is highly unlikely that even basic antibiotics like Penicillin will be actively manufactured in an apocalyptic scenario due to the complexities in said manufacture. Those who say, “it’s just bread mold” are naïve if they think just making prepper bread and letting it sit will produce anything That would cure an infection (penicillin is actually made from liquid that the mold produces under certain man-made conditions. And, no, Ginger Root and other “home antibiotics” probably won’t either.

The reason that I consider this a major issue is that there will be a much larger incidence of infection when people start to fend for themselves, and injure themselves as a result. Simple cuts and scratches from chopping wood can begin to show infection, in the form of redness, heat and swelling, within a relatively short time. Treatment of infections at an early stage improves the chance that they will heal quickly and completely. However, many preppers, being the rugged folk that they are, are most likely to ignore the problem until it gets much worse and spreads to their entire body, causing fever and other systemic problems that could eventually be fatal. Have antibiotics already on hand in their retreat would allow them to deal with the issue until medical help (if available at all) arrives.

Now, what I am about to tell you is contrary to standard medical practice, and is a strategy that is best used in the event of societal collapse that causes the unavailability of conventional medical care for extended periods of time. This line of thought that I am presenting is that “sumpthin” is better than “nuttin” and is not meant to serve as official medical advice for any circumstance but a catastrophic breakdown of our infrastructure and ability of our country to provide medical care for its citizens. If there is modern medical care available to you, seek it out.

Small amounts of medications such as antibiotics could be procured by anyone who is willing to tell their physician that they are going out of the country and would like to avoid “Montezuma’s Revenge”. Ask them for Tamiflu for viral illness and Z-packs, Amoxicillin or Keflex for bacterial diarrhea. Stockpiling of these antibiotics is more of a problem. After searching far and wide, I have come across the best option for the prepper: Aquarium Fish antibiotics.

For evaluation purposes (and because I am an aquarium hobbyist), I decided to purchase online a variety of these products and found them to be identical (unlike some Dog and Cat medications) to those used to treat humans with a doctor’s prescription. I was able to purchase them without any demand for medical license, etc. The drugs are listed below and the bottles list the antibiotic as the sole ingredient. They are:

* FISH-MOX (amoxicillin 250mg)
* FISH_MOX FORTE (amoxicillin 500mg)
* FISH-CILLIN (ampicillin 250mg)
* FISH-FLEX Keflex 250mg)
* FISH-FLEX FORTE (Keflex 500mg)
* FISH-ZOLE (metronidazole 250mg)
* FISH-PEN (penicillin 250mg)
* FISH-PEN FORTE (penicillin 500mg)
* FISH-CYCLINE (tetracycline 250mg)

These medications are available usually in plastic bottles of 100 tablets for much less than the same prescription medication at the pharmacy (some come in bottles of 30 tablets). The dosages are similar to that used in humans, and are taken two to four times a day, depending on the drug. The 500mg dosage is probably more effective in larger individuals. Of course, anyone could be allergic to one or another of these antibiotics, but not all of them. (Note that there is a 10% cross-reactivity between "-cillin" drugs and Keflex, meaning that, if you are allergic to Penicillin, you could also be allergic to Keflex). FISH-ZOLE is an antibiotic that also kills some protozoa that cause dysentery.

NOTE: It should be emphasized that FISH-CYCLINE [and other tetracycline antibiotics of various names] can become toxic after its expiration date, unlike most of the other medications listed. So consider acquiring the other ones listed, first.

Which brings me to a question that I am asked quite often and to which my answer is, again, contrary to standard medical recommendations but appropriate in a post-TEOTWAWKI environment where no medical care is otherwise available. The question is: What happens when the medications I stockpiled pass their expiration date?

Since 1979, pharmaceutical companies have been required to place expiration dates on all medications. Officially, this is the last day that the company will certify that their drug is at full potency. Some people take this to mean that the medicine in question is useless or in some way harmful after that date. With few exceptions (tetracycline being one previously mentioned), this is what I delicately term as “a bunch of hooey”!

Studies performed by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) revealed that 90% of medications tested were perfectly fine to use 8-to-15 years after the expiration date. There was apparently no danger in the grand majority of cases. The FDA tested more than 100 medications, both prescription and non-prescription, and continues to study the issue today. The exceptions were mostly in liquid form (antibiotics included, but also insulin, nitroglycerin and some others). What is true is that the potency of an antibiotic could possibly decrease over time, so it is important that your medication cache is in a cool, dry place if at all possible. Refrigeration is an excellent method to maintain the full potency of many drugs.

Many people gauge their preparedness on the number of full ammo boxes in their closet. I’ve got them too. However, preparedness doesn’t mean going out in a blaze of glory; it means going on, in the best health and condition, to re-establish a peaceful and productive society. Every prepper should have antibiotics as part of their medical supplies. They’re available, they’re cheap and they could save your life.

[Sniper-T]

And another, about the actual shelf life's of medications, as opposed to what is stamped on the bottle:

Drugs Frequently Potent Past Expiration

By Laurie P. Cohen

Do drugs really stop working after the date stamped on the bottle?
Fifteen years ago, the U.S. military decided to find out. Sitting on a
$1 billion stockpile of drugs and facing the daunting process of
destroying and replacing its supply every two to three years, the
military began a testing program to see if it could extend the life of
its inventory.

The testing, conducted by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration,
ultimately covered more than 100 drugs, prescription and
over-the-counter. The results, never before reported, show that about
90% of them were safe and effective far past their original expiration
date, at least one for 15 years past it.

In light of these results, a former director of the testing program,
Francis Flaherty, says he has concluded that expiration dates put on by
manufacturers typically have no bearing on whether a drug is usable for
longer. Mr. Flaherty notes that a drug maker is required to prove only
that a drug is still good on whatever expiration date the company
chooses to set. The expiration date doesn't mean, or even suggest, that
the drug will stop being effective after that, nor that it will become
harmful.

MARKETING ISSUE
"Manufacturers put expiration dates on for marketing, rather than
scientific, reasons," says Mr. Flaherty, a pharmacist at the FDA until
his retirement last year. "It's not profitable for them to have products
on a shelf for 10 years. They want turnover."

The FDA cautions that there isn't enough evidence from the program,
which is weighted toward drugs needed during combat and which tests only
individual manufacturing batches, to conclude that most drugs in
people's medicine cabinets are potent beyond the expiration date. Still,
Joel Davis, a former FDA expiration-date compliance chief, says that
with a handful of exceptions - notably nitroglycerin, insulin and some
liquid antibiotics - most drugs are probably as durable as those the
agency has tested for the military. "Most drugs degrade very slowly," he
says. "In all likelihood, you can take a product you have at home and
keep it for many years, especially if it's in the refrigerator."

MANUFACTURERS' VIEW
Drug-industry officials don't dispute the results of the FDA's testing,
within what is called the Shelf Life Extension Program. And they
acknowledge that expiration dates have a commercial dimension. But they
say relatively short shelf lives make sense from a public-safety
standpoint, as well.

New, more-beneficial drugs can be brought on the market more easily if
the old ones are discarded within a couple of years, they say. Label
redesigns work better when consumers don't have earlier versions on hand
to create confusion. From the companies' perspective, any liability or
safety risk is diminished by limiting the period during which a consumer
might misuse or improperly store a drug.

"Two to three years is a very comfortable point of commercial
convenience," says Mark van Arandonk, senior director for pharmaceutical
development at Pharmacia & Upjohn Inc. "It gives us enough time to put
the inventory in warehouses, ship it and ensure it will stay on shelves
long enough to get used." But companies uniformly deny any effort to
spur sales through planned obsolescence.

WHY NOT LONGER?
Now that the FDA has found that many drugs are still good long after
they have supposedly expired, why doesn't it advocate later expiration
dates for consumer drugs? One reason is that the consumer market lacks
the military's logistical reasons to keep drugs around longer.

Frank Holcombe, associate director of the FDA's office of generic drugs,
says that in many cases a manufacturer could extend expiration periods
again and again, but to support those extensions, it would have to keep
doing stability studies, and keep more in storage than it would like.

Mr. Davis adds: "It's not the job of the FDA to be concerned about a
consumer's economic interest." It would be up to Congress to impose
changes, he says. As things stand now, expiration dates get a lot of
emphasis. For instance, there is a campaign, co-sponsored by some drug
retailers, that urges people to discard pills when they reach the date
on the label.

And that date often is even earlier than the one the maker set. That's
because when pharmacists dispense a drug in any container other than
what it came to them in, they routinely cut the expiration date to just
one year after dispensing. Some states even require pharmacists to do this.

Meanwhile, poor countries - under urging from the World Health
Organization - often reject drug-company donations of much-needed
medicines if they are within a year of their expiration dates.

It isn't known how much of the $120 billion-plus spent annually in the
U.S. on prescription and over-the-counter medicines goes to replace
expired ones. But in a poll done for The Wall Street Journal by NPD
Group Inc. of Port Washington, N.Y., 70% of 1,000 respondents said they
probably wouldn't take a prescription drug after its expiration date;
72% said the same of an over-the-counter remedy.

"People think that, upon expiration, drugs suddenly turn toxic or lose
all their potency," says Philip Alper, professor of medicine at
University of California at San Francisco. In his own practice, Dr.
Alper says, "I frequently hear - from patients who can't afford medicine
- that they have thrown away expired drugs." He says companies should be
required to test drugs for longer periods and set later expiration dates
when results warrant.

Some manufacturers first began putting expiration dates on drugs in the
1960s, although they didn't have to. When the FDA began requiring such
dating in 1979, the main effect was to set uniform testing and reporting
guidelines. As now required by the FDA, so-called stability testing
analyzes the capacity of a drug to maintain its identity, strength,
quality and purity for whatever period the manufacturer picks. If the
company picks a two-year expiration date, it needn't test beyond that.

Testing for a two-year expiration doesn't initially entail holding a
drug for two years. Rather, the drug is tested by subjecting it to
extreme heat and humidity for several months, then chemically analyzing
each ingredient's identity and strength. (After the date is set and the
drug is marketed, testing continues for the full two years.) The FDA
also uses chemical analysis in testing for possible shelf-life
extension; it doesn't test on human subjects. Testing conditions are
such that any medicine that meets, say, the standards for a two-year
expiration date probably lasts longer, the FDA and drug companies agree.

STILL GOOD
Consider aspirin. Bayer AG puts two-year or three-year dates on aspirin
and says that it should be discarded after that. Chris Allen, a vice
president at the Bayer unit that makes aspirin, says the dating is
"pretty conservative"; when Bayer has tested four-year-old aspirin, it
remained 100% effective, he says.

So why doesn't Bayer set a four-year expiration date? Because the
company often changes packaging, and it undertakes "continuous
improvement programs," Mr. Allen says. Each change triggers a need for
more expiration-date testing, he says, and testing each time for a
four-year life would be impractical.

Bayer has never tested aspirin beyond four years, Mr. Allen says. But
Jens Carstensen has. Dr. Carstensen, professor emeritus at the
University of Wisconsin's pharmacy school, who wrote what is considered
the main text on drug stability, says, "I did a study of different
aspirins, and after five years, Bayer was still excellent. Aspirin, if
made correctly, is very stable."

Only one report known to the medical community linked an old drug to
human toxicity. A 1963 Journal of the American Medical Association
article said degraded tetracycline caused kidney damage. Even this
study, though, has been challenged by other scientists. Mr. Flaherty
says the Shelf Life program encountered no toxicity with tetracycline
and typically found batches effective for more than two years beyond
their expiration dates.

PLEA FROM THE AIR FORCE
The program dates to a U.S. effort begun in 1981 to increase military
readiness by buying large quantities of drugs and medical devices for
the armed forces. Four years later, more than $1 billion of supplies had
been stockpiled. The General Accounting Office audited Air Force troop
hospitals in Europe and found many supplies at or near expiration. It
warned that by the 1990s, more than $100 million would have to be spent
yearly on replacements.

The Air Force Surgeon General's office asked the FDA if it could
possibly extend the shelf life of these drugs. The FDA had the equipment
for stability testing. And because it had approved the drugs' sale in
the first place, it also had manufacturers' data on the testing
protocols. Testing for the Air Force began in late 1985. In the first
year, 58 medicines from 137 different manufacturing lots were shipped to
the FDA from overseas storage, among them penicillin, lidocaine and
Lactated Ringers, an intravenous solution for dehydration. After
testing, the FDA extended more than 80% of the expired lots, by an
average of 33 months.

In 1992, according to the FDA, more than half of the expired drugs that
had been retested in 1985 were still fine. Even now, at least one still
is. Such results came as a revelation for Army Col. George Crawford when
he took over military oversight of the program in 1997. He is a
pharmacist, but "nobody tells you in pharmacy school that shelf life is
about marketing, turnover and profits," he says. (The drug makers don't
agree that it is, however.)

HOW IT WORKS
The military's base for the program is a dingy barracks room in Fort
Detrick, Md. There, a group headed by Air Force Lt. Col. Greg Russie,
who recently took over from Col. Crawford, tracks drugs that are near
expiration at defense facilities all over the world, selecting many for
retesting. They are shipped to the FDA, which sends them to its
laboratories.

The FDA's lab in Philadelphia recently tested five automatic injectors
containing an antidote to chemical poisoning, which were purposely held
for three months in conditions even hotter and more humid than the FDA
requires in consumer testing of drugs. The FDA tested the drug contained
in the injectors, pralidoxime chloride, by separating its ingredients
and measuring the strength and quality of each, then applying a computer
model to determine whether a shelf-life extension was warranted.

The injectors' original expiration date was November 1985. The FDA had
retested them periodically ever since, each time approving their
continued use. The batch, made by Ayerst Laboratories, now part of
American Home Products Corp.'s Wyeth-Ayerst unit, is 18 years old. It is
15 years beyond the expiration date applied by Ayerst. The FDA found it
is still good.

A spokesman for Wyeth-Ayerst says it "uses scientific data to establish
expiration dates" and "tries to have the longest possible dating on
products that scientific data supports." The company is aware of the FDA
retesting program. It says it can't comment specifically on the
injectors tested by the FDA.

A FEW FAIL
Shelf-life extensions are "intentionally conservative," the FDA's Mr.
Flaherty told military brass in a 1992 speech. He says that if the
agency extended an expiration date by 36 months, it had concluded the
lot would retain all of its safety and efficacy for at least 72 months.
A very few drugs aren't retested. The military has found that
water-purification tablets and mefloquine hydrochloride, for malaria,
routinely fail stability testing beyond their expiration dates, so it
has removed them from the program.

Also excluded are large-volume intravenous solutions, such as saline.
"We don't like to test those," says Col. Crawford. "Not because we
can't, but because it would be politically sensitive if G.I. Joe was
lying in bed and saw it had originally expired three years ago."

Mr. Flaherty has said that while he tested a handful of drug batches
that didn't even make it to their expiration dates, most drugs were
"surprisingly durable." In one instance, he says, drugs labeled for
room-temperature storage had been kept for two years in a warehouse in
Oman that averaged 135 degrees Fahrenheit in the daytime. Upon
expiration, the drugs, which included the local anesthetic lidocaine and
atropine, a nerve-gas antidote also used by eye doctors to dilate
pupils, "were well within the standards for potency and other quality
characteristics," he says.

STABLE MOLECULE
One medicine the FDA has endorsed for extensions is ciprofloxacin
hydrochloride tablets, an antibiotic marketed by Bayer as Cipro. One
batch had an expiration date of March 1989. More than 9 1/2 years later,
the FDA found the tablets still good; it then extended some of them for
18 more months and others for 24 more months.

Albert Poirier, quality-assurance director for Bayer's pharmaceutical
division, says he isn't surprised because Cipro "is a stable drug
molecule" in tablet form. "We go for a shelf life that will be safest
for patients," he says. "We want the drug to be used up within three
years. We wouldn't want a patient to have it for 10 years because they'd
have an old package insert" that might omit new information or
contra-indications and because "we'd have no control over how they'd
store the drug during this time."

Another extended drug is Thorazine, a tranquilizer chemically known as
chlorpromazine tablets. Batches bearing December 1996 expiration dates -
unused and unopened, as is the case with all drugs evaluated in the
Shelf Life program - were tested in July 1998 and extended for two
years. A spokesman for the maker, SmithKline Beecham PLC, says it
applies an expiration date 24 months after manufacture. "We think that
is the appropriate expiration date," he says. "We don't benefit from
short expiration dates."

Some other drugs the FDA has extended at least two years beyond their
expiration dates are diazepam, sold as Valium; cimetidine, sold as
Tagamet; phenytoin, sold as Dilantin; and the antibiotics tetracycline
and penicillin.

BIG SAVINGS
On a cost-benefit basis, the program's returns have been huge. The first
year, the Air Force paid the FDA $78,000 for testing and saved 59 times
that sum by not needing to replace the drugs. After other services
joined, the military from 1993 through 1998 spent about $3.9 million on
testing and saved $263.4 million on drug expense, according to Lt. Col.
Russie.

Says Mr. Flaherty: "We've cost the pharmaceutical companies hundreds of
millions of dollars in sales of new stuff to the Department of Defense."
More than 12 years ago, Messrs. Flaherty and Davis explained the program
to drug-company chemists at a meeting of the American Association of
Pharmaceutical Scientists in Woodbridge, N.J., going into detail about
how the FDA decided whether to extend a given expiration date. Mr. Davis
concluded by noting how much the U.S. had saved by extending shelf lives
instead of "destroying large quantities of still-useful medical
products... ."

Mr. Flaherty says the FDA was keenly aware that if its methodology was
flawed, or its results incorrect even once, its credibility would be
attacked. Yet FDA officials say that during the program's 15 years, drug
makers have never objected to any of its procedures or findings. "They
may not have liked what we were doing, but they weren't able to
challenge it," he says.

THE MESSAGE TO CIVILIANS
While the military is finding it can keep most drugs longer, civilians
hear quite a different message. For instance, a campaign called the
National Expired and Unused Medication Drive has collected and destroyed
36 tons of drugs since 1991, says its founder, Kathilee Champlin. Ms.
Champlin, of Colorado Springs, Colo., says her interest derives from
experience working with the elderly and seeing how hard it was for them
to keep track of all their medications. She says she wasn't aware of any
FDA program to extend drugs' shelf lives.

Her group has gained sponsorship from the some big drug retailers,
including Wal-Mart Stores Inc. It sponsors the campaign to be "a good
corporate citizen," says Frank Seagrave, vice president of pharmacy
merchandising. "We believe that people should dispose of unused
prescription medicines a year after they get them," he says, adding that
Wal-Mart sometimes gives people a free bottle of vitamins if they bring
in expired drugs.

Many pharmacists also play a role in shelf lives. The U.S. Pharmacopeia,
a not-for-profit scientific group that develops standards for the drug
industry, urged in 1985 that pharmacists set expiration dates at no more
than one year if they were dispensing drugs in a bottle other than the
manufacturer's original packaging. "New containers may let in more
moisture and heat than the container the manufacturer used for the
stability study," accelerating the drug's degradation, says the USP
General Counsel Joseph Valentino.

The recommendation became a USP requirement in 1997. As a result, "the
majority of pharmacists shorten the manufacturers' expiration dates" on
prescription drugs to one year or less, says Susan Winckler, an official
of the American Pharmaceutical Association. In fact, in 17 states,
pharmacists now are legally required to do so. Ms. Winckler says
shortening the dates makes sense because many people store drugs in
moist bathrooms. She says the one-year rule is "motivated by product
integrity and not by profit."

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL March 29, 2000

COMMENT: The key from the article is "shelf life" is about marketing,
turnover and profits. I find it absolutely incredible that the military
spent from 1993 through 1998 about $3.9 million on testing and saved
$263.4 million on drug expense. We can clearly gain some valuable
insights from this incredible piece in the Wall Street journal and sent
in by ever diligent Michael Belkin. Unless you have nitroglycerin,
insulin and liquid antibiotics, you can pretty much be safely assured
that your medication expires years beyond the date it says it does. I
believe the major tragedy is that many Third World countries needlessly
discard the drugs that are sent to them and could actually be saving
lives due to lack of appreciation of this concept.

[mollypup]

These are great articles! Thanks Sniper-T for posting them!

[mollypup]

Concerning the fish antibiotics, does anyone know any on-line sites that sell them?
Thanks! :)

[Stormfeather]

Concerning the fish antibiotics, does anyone know any on-line sites that sell them?
Thanks! :)

Check post #12 Mollypup!

[mollypup]

Check post #12 Mollypup!

YIKES!!! I blew right past that one Stormfeather. Thanks!!! :D

[Stormfeather]

Anytime!

[AlphaTea]

Kidney Stone(s)
There is no worse pain on this earth than a 5x8mm Calcium Oxilate KS
I have broken my leg, damn near twisted it off, yea it hurt a lot
I had broken toes, fingers and an arm. Yea it hurt a lot.
I had 7 wisdom teeth (long story) and 4 required surgery for being impacted. Dr broke my jaw. Hurt like a MoFo.
I tripped over a barrel cactus once. That hurt a lot.
I got stung in the eye once. That hurt
Appendicitis was pretty bad...
None of it even came close to what I felt just before the drugs kicked in. Felt like a knife on a pogo stick in the back with your nuts in a vice while you puke your guts out and damn near shit yourself. Broke 2 teeth. You can pass most stones. Eventually. Had to have a Lythotripsy on the last one (#7)
I managed to squirrel away some of my pain meds JIC I cant get to an ER.
Yea, kidney stones scare the hell out of me.

[izzyscout21]

Kidney Stone(s)
There is no worse pain on this earth than a 5x8mm Calcium Oxilate KS
I have broken my leg, damn near twisted it off, yea it hurt a lot
I had broken toes, fingers and an arm. Yea it hurt a lot.
I had 7 wisdom teeth (long story) and 4 required surgery for being impacted. Dr broke my jaw. Hurt like a MoFo.
I tripped over a barrel cactus once. That hurt a lot.
I got stung in the eye once. That hurt
Appendicitis was pretty bad...
None of it even came close to what I felt just before the drugs kicked in. Felt like a knife on a pogo stick in the back with your nuts in a vice while you puke your guts out and damn near shit yourself. Broke 2 teeth. You can pass most stones. Eventually. Had to have a Lythotripsy on the last one (#7)
I managed to squirrel away some of my pain meds JIC I cant get to an ER.
Yea, kidney stones scare the hell out of me.

you sound about as accident prone as me.

How'd the cactus work out??

[AlphaTea]

San Angelo TX 1968, I was about 11 at the time. It was just after the weekly Boy Scout meeting and some of us were running around in the dark playing hide-and -seek or some other kid game. I was fairly new to the area and vaguely knew what a cactus was. I was running all out and hit this 10-12" small cactus square on with my right foot and shin. Went down instantly with several hundred needles from mid shin to just above my toes with mostly to the inside of my foot/leg. Screamed like a little girl. I was wearing shorts with the old knee high BSA socks and Canvas Keds sneakers. I lost the Keds because they had to cut that one off. Cut off the sock too. Initially they tried pulling them out individually and then decided that it would be easier to pull the sock and shoe away and most of the big spikes came out that way. It took a while to get the smaller ones out. The scoutmaster sent some one to get my folks as I had ridden my bike about 3 or 4 miles to get to the meeting. The next day my folks took me to the base hospital to get checked out. Gave me some stuff to put on it and something for the pain. Leg did swell up for a while and i was picking needles out of myself for weeks after that.
No, a barrel cactus is not soft.

[izzyscout21]

geez dude! I squirmed just reading that. Glad it all worked out ok.

[Stormfeather]

Kidney Stone(s)
There is no worse pain on this earth than a 5x8mm Calcium Oxilate KS
I have broken my leg, damn near twisted it off, yea it hurt a lot
I had broken toes, fingers and an arm. Yea it hurt a lot.
I had 7 wisdom teeth (long story) and 4 required surgery for being impacted. Dr broke my jaw. Hurt like a MoFo.
I tripped over a barrel cactus once. That hurt a lot.
I got stung in the eye once. That hurt
Appendicitis was pretty bad...
None of it even came close to what I felt just before the drugs kicked in. Felt like a knife on a pogo stick in the back with your nuts in a vice while you puke your guts out and damn near shit yourself. Broke 2 teeth. You can pass most stones. Eventually. Had to have a Lythotripsy on the last one (#7)
I managed to squirrel away some of my pain meds JIC I cant get to an ER.
Yea, kidney stones scare the hell out of me.


No offense man, Not sure I would want ya around me during a SHTF. . . Ya might exhaust all my meds within one week at the rate youre going! :cool:

[AlphaTea]

None taken.
Just a side note, pain meds can be tricky and should be used with caution because of the side effects.
Most people will get constipated when doing pain meds (opiates) which can cause other problems. I keep stool softeners in my preps and do a one for one with the good stuff.
Stones can be tricky too. Must of the pain is only when they are on the move from the kidney to the bladder, about 12-14". I had one that was a roller coaster ride for two weeks (#3 I think). Get a twinge in the back than feels like a toothpick poking you to a full blown Redwood impaling you in about 15 mins. Last for a few to several hours and stop as fast as it starts. You gotta strain your urine to make sure it has passed. You pray you see it soon. It will start back up in an hour or a day later. It would be hard to ration your meds if you didnt know you passed it and were still popping Vicodin or Dilaudid. Not expensive or hard to get during normal times, but if SHTF, what you have on hand is the last you will ever see. Also withdrawal is a real bitch. If I take 1 or 2 as needed every 4-6 hours for 3 days or so, I tote a monkey for about two days unless I wean off slowly. Incredible flu symptoms. Woke up once in a pool of sweat with water puddled on my chest. Get chills so bad it looks like an Epileptic fit. No shit bad scene. Nah I could not survive the recreational drug lifestyle.
All that being said, when that stone decides to move, you could not give a rats ass about withdrawal later.

[Stormfeather]

Definitely making a note of the stuff you went thru under kidney stones in my own little book. Thanks for an honest and upfront idea of what to look for.

[mollypup]

After reading the posts about kidney stone pain, maybe a toothache isn't all that bad............naw, it's still pretty bad. :)

[Stg1swret]

Mine is the common cold. may sound a little funy, until you realize what it has the possibility to develope into, and how much it actually sets you up to contract other illnesses.

[AlphaTea]

After reading the posts about kidney stone pain, maybe a toothache isn't all that bad............naw, it's still pretty bad. :)
One thing about KS is that you will probably live thru it without drugs and it will eventually pass (with some exceptions). I do not recommend trying to "man up" and make it thru without drugs. I managed to break teeth even with the drugs.

A tooth ache WILL NOT GO AWAY! They dont get better. They get worse. Luckily most toothaches start off small and get worse over time. Your only options are filling and extraction. You aint gonna fill it so extraction is is most likely option. You think you can pull a rotten tooth out with a Leatherman? Think again. That tooth hurts because it is damaged. Many teeth will break when being pulled. What are you going to do if you only get 1/2 of it out and one of the roots break off. You are going to be up shit creek if you get dry socket too. I HIGHLY suggest you download a copy of "Where There Is No Dentist" and print it out with your copy of "Where there is no Doctor". Both are easy to find on the net.Familiarize yourself with what is required for different situation and what tools you might need. Decide if you can even help yourself or others. Not everyone can handle someone elses pain and suffering.

I dont care who you are or how big a Macho man you think you are, A Kidney Stone or a tooth ache CAN and WILL take you out if you have one.

BTW, Cute dog

[mollypup]

One thing about KS is that you will probably live thru it without drugs and it will eventually pass (with some exceptions). I do not recommend trying to "man up" and make it thru without drugs. I managed to break teeth even with the drugs.

A tooth ache WILL NOT GO AWAY! They dont get better. They get worse. Luckily most toothaches start off small and get worse over time. Your only options are filling and extraction. You aint gonna fill it so extraction is is most likely option. You think you can pull a rotten tooth out with a Leatherman? Think again. That tooth hurts because it is damaged. Many teeth will break when being pulled. What are you going to do if you only get 1/2 of it out and one of the roots break off. You are going to be up shit creek if you get dry socket too. I HIGHLY suggest you download a copy of "Where There Is No Dentist" and print it out with your copy of "Where there is no Doctor". Both are easy to find on the net.Familiarize yourself with what is required for different situation and what tools you might need. Decide if you can even help yourself or others. Not everyone can handle someone elses pain and suffering.

I dont care who you are or how big a Macho man you think you are, A Kidney Stone or a tooth ache CAN and WILL take you out if you have one.

BTW, Cute dog

I couldn't agree more with everything you said! All very true. I bought the books, "Where There is No Dentist" and "Where There is No Doctor" but have yet to give them a thorough read. Everytime I come to this thread I just thank my lucky stars that I've never had a kidney stone (knock on wood!) and I take a LOT better care of my teeth now. I've stockpiled a lot of tubes of toothpaste, toothbrushes and dental floss. Even if the world goes down in flames at least we will have healthy teeth! http://planetsmilies.net/grinning-smiley-9527.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

I LOVE chihuahuas! :D

[bacpacker]

Toothaches suck for sure. I had an abcess once and had it for several years. No problem right. Then one Saturday I was helping a co-worker move and late in the morning it got to hurting. By that night I couldn't stand it. We had no pain killers on hand, so I sent the wife out for some liquor. It helped that night, but next morning oh my god. I had never had pain like that. We called the dentist and got their answering service and they set us up for a appointment later in the day. Ended up with a root canal, but I was sick for 2 days afterward. I sure wouldn't have wanted to be in a serious situation then. I was more useless than I normally am.

Alpha talking about withdrawl, my wife got to expereince that 4 times after her car wreck. They put her on morphine while in the ER before surgery and 5 days afterward. Then stepped her down to demoral, codine, then percadan, then nothing. It was a good 2-3 days of hell and plenty of pain as she weaned off each. When they cut it all off, just pain. I'm sure a lot of you all have been thru this, but seeing someone in severe pain and nothing you can do is a helpless feeling.