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Sniper-T
10-25-2011, 12:00 PM
I was sent this article a while back, and thought it would be a good thing to share. It's a bit long, so grab a coffee before you start to read.

A little on the high side dramatic-wise, but did have some interesting points to ponder ...

Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare, by Jeff T.

"I am the leader of a band of 8-to-12 looters. I have some basic military training. We move from place to place like locusts devouring everything in our path. My group is armed with light weapons and can develop and follow simple plans of attack. We take what we want by force of arms. We prefer none of our victims survive because that could cause problems for us in the future.

It has been six months since the grid went down. You and the other five members of your party have settled into what may be a long grinding existence. The every day tasks of growing and gathering have now become routine. The news from the outside is extremely limited but you don't really miss it much. Life is simple but physically demanding.

Although things may seem stable you will need to keep your team focused and alert. This is your first and most important layer of defense. You should hold an immediate reaction drill once per week. Keep things simple. Practice a specific response to such threats as injury, fire, attack and evacuation. Despite the challenges you must maintain contact with those around you such as neighbors for vital clues that trouble is brewing. Regular monitoring the radio will be critical in providing an early warning of trouble. You may be able to safely interview refugees with risking your party. Keep in mind the information you get from them may not always be reliable.
While you have been farming I have been learning the best tactics to employ to seize your property and your goods. I have been refining them since we hit the road right after the lights went out. I have conducted eight "hits" so far and have been successful seven times. Here are some of my "lessons learned".

Intelligence gathering and target selection is critical to my success. Targets include those who have large quantities of fuel, food and other valuable supplies. My posse is constantly questioning anyone and everyone we contact searching for this our next victim. Anyone who has ever had knowledge, even second hand, of your preparations is someone of interest to me. I may approach them directly or indirectly. If anyone knows something I will find out about it. Who seems well-fed? Who still has transportation? Who has lights? Who was prepared? Where are they exactly? Somebody talks, either in person or on the radio. They always do.
We search for victims night and day. During the day we are listening for the sounds of machinery, cars, tractors, gunfire or generators. Day or night without a lot of wind those sounds can carry for miles. At night I look for any sort of light. Even a small flash indicates somebody with electricity and that means a rich target. I always have somebody listing to the scanner for any news, leads or insecure chatter.
Operational Security (OPSEC) is an important concept for your entire group to understand and maintain. If somebody outside your circle doesn't have a real need to know about your plans, preparations or procedures then they shouldn't know period. Develop a cover story and live it like was a bulletproof vest. It is no less important to your protection and survival. During an event you need to blend in with the surrounding environment. Carefully observe noise (such as generators and other engines) and light discipline especially at night. If you need to test fire weapons do it in one sequence to avoid a prolonged noise signature.

Once I find and target you reconnaissance of your retreat is my next step. Only a fool would try to rush in and try to overwhelm a group of "survivalists". We had a bad experience with that during our second hit. Now we spend at least a day or two trying to size up a large opportunity and the best way to take it down. I will observe retreat activity from a nearby-concealed position. I will get an idea of your numbers, weapons, routines and so much more by careful surreptitious observation. If your group seems alert, I will try and trigger a false alarm with a dog or child to watch your reaction to a threat. That helps me know how you respond, where you are strong and how to attack. I may also obtain a topographical map of the area to identify likely avenues of approach and potential escapes routes you will try to use. I may coerce your neighbors into uncovering a weak spot or access point or other important intelligence. I also have a Bearcat handheld scanner. I will be listening for any insecure chatter from your radios.

Regular patrols at irregular intervals focused on likely observation points and avenues of approach could keep me at bay. You could put down sand or other soft soil in key choke points as a way of "recording" if anyone has recently traveled through the land. Dogs, with their advanced sense of hearing and smell are able to detect and alert you to intruders well in advance of any human. Motion sensing IR video cameras as a part of a security plan could play a part in your layered defense as long as you have power. A 24 hour manned observation point equipped with high quality optical tools is a must. It should be fortified and if possible concealed. It should have a weapon capable of reaching to the edges of your vision. Seismic intrusion devices, night vision and thermal imaging are phenomenal force multiplying tools. They can give you critical intelligence and warning. You should use them if you have them. Understand they are not fool proof and I can often neutralize them if I know you have them.

These tools and techniques provide you reaction time. Time to plan your response and time to execute that plan. Recognize that a "defender" is always at a disadvantage. By definition a defender will be reacting to my attack. Modern warfare has emphasized the ability of the attacker to operate faster than opponents can react. This can be explained by the OODA loop. Below are the four steps of the classic OODA loop. These are the steps a defender goes through when under attack.

1. Observing or noticing the attack.
2. Orient to the direction, method and type of attack.
3. Deciding what the appropriate response will be.
4. Acting on that decision.

As an attacker I will try and operate at a pace faster than you as a defender can adjust to. I will change my direction, pace, timing and method to force you to continue to process through the OODA loop. This creates confusion and wastes your precious reaction time. As a defender you will need to disrupt or reset your attackers timing with a counter-attack. When you are successful you become the attacker. Your defensive plans should utilize and exploit this concept. Here are a few scenarios:

1. Snipe & Siege

I will begin the attack when I can engage at least half of your party's military age personnel in one coordinated effort. I will infiltrate my team into concealed positions around your retreat within 50 to 75 yards. I will target any identified leadership with the first volley. Two thirds of my people will be engaging personnel. The other group will target communications antennas, surveillance cameras and any visible lighting assets. I want your group unable to see, communicate or call for help. The members of my band will each fire two magazines in the initial exchange. Two thirds of my group will change to new concealed positions and wait. One third will fall back into an ambush of the most likely avenue of escape. We will stay concealed and wait until you come out to attend to your wounded and dead. We repeat the attack as necessary until any resistance is crushed.
Ensure you adjust the landscape around your retreat so that I don't have anyplace offering cover or concealment within 100 yards of your residence. You can create decorative masonry walls that can be used to offer cover for personnel close to your residence. Fighting positions can be built now and used as raised planting beds and then excavated for use in the future. These can be extended or reinforced after any significant event. These structures or other measures such as trenching must be sited carefully to avoid allowing them to be used effectively by an attacker if they are overrun.

2. Trojan Horse

For one hit we used an old UPS truck. We forced a refugee to drive it to the retreat gate. We concealed half our group inside the truck. The truck was hardened on the inside with some sandbags around the edges. The other half of our group formed an ambush concealed inside the tree line along the driveway. We killed the driver to make it look good and had one person run away. Those preppers almost waited us out. After nearly three hours they all walked slowly down the driveway. They were bunched up in a group intent on checking out the truck and driver. It was like shooting fish in a barrel.

They could have worked together as group to sweep the area 360 degrees around the truck and they would have surely found us. A dog would have also alerted the residents to our presence. They could have taken measures to eliminate the vegetation offering us concealment on the road near the gate. They could have used CS gas or something similar to "deny" any suspicious areas. Lastly they could have done a "reconnaissance by fire". Shooting into likely hiding spots, including the truck, trying to evoke a response. They should have established an over watch position with the majority of their group. This over watch group would have provided visual security and an immediate response if there were an attack. They were not expecting any additional threats. They didn't consider that there might be additional danger lurking nearby aside from the truck and they died
.
3. Kidnap & Surrender

A few weeks ago we surprised and captured a couple of women out tending a garden. It was totally by chance. We were traveling through a very rural area on our way to another town when somebody heard a tractor backfire. We immediately stopped and I sent a small team to recon the noise. They bumped into a small party tending a field at the edge of their retreat. They seized two women and immediately dragged them back to our vehicles. We began negotiations by sending a finger from each one back to the retreat under a white flag. The rest was easy.
This didn't need to happen. Better noise discipline would have kept us from discovering their retreat. Some simple boundary fencing or tangle foot could have delayed us. The women should have been armed and aware of such a threat. If they has established an over watch for the garden they could have engaged us before we took our hostages or at least alerted the others that there was a problem. They also could have had a quick reaction SOP developed prior to this incident. That Quick Reaction (QR) force could have followed the kidnappers back to our vehicles and set up an ambush of their own. Rural retreat security is a full time job. If you snooze you may lose everything.

4. Fire and Maneuver

I don't like this option but sometimes the prize is just too tempting. We typically infiltrate quietly at night to prearranged start points. We begin our attack just before dawn when your senses are dulled by a long night watch or from sleep. Based on our reconnaissance we divided your retreat into positions or zones that need specific attention. We prepare for battle by using an air rifle to target any lights or cameras. Our first priority is to engage any LP/OP site and destroy or degrade them as much as possible. I split my forces into two supporting groups. One group keeps the target position under constant fire. The other group also fires and maneuvers, closing on the target and destroying it with gunfire or improvised weapons. Many times these positions only have one occupant and the task is relatively easy. Often these positions are easy to spot and are too far from each other to provide any effective mutual support. We will work from one position to the next. In the darkness and confusion most of the defenders are disoriented and ineffective. They fall like dominos. We have also used motorcycles to negotiate obstacles and speed through cuts in the perimeter fence. Then throw Molotov Cocktails into any defensive position as they roar past. If you fall back into your residence we will set up a siege. If we can maneuver close enough, perhaps by using a distraction, we will pump concentrated insecticide into your building or we may introduce LP gas from a portable tank into the house and ignite it with tracer fire.

If there was enough warning time from your OP you could execute a pre-planned response. Your planned response should be simple, easy to understand and execute. Half your group occupies your fighting positions, two to a position. The rest of your party establishes an over watch and concentrate its fire at the enemies trying to fix your positions. If you had more than enough prepared positions the enemy might not know where to attack. It would also provide more flexibility in your defense based on the direction of attack. I would use Night Vision if available or illumination from flares or lights as a last resort. Rats hate light.

Usually people keep main access points blocked from high-speed approach. Likely avenues of approach should also be blocked or choked and kept under observation. Remember though what keeps me out keeps you in. Typically the common techniques of parking vehicles in roadways will only delay my approach not stop it altogether. An ordinary 12-gauge shotgun, shooting slugs, can stop most types of non-military vehicles at close range.
Don't forget the threat of fire or other non-traditional weapons in your defensive plans.

You could create the illusion of a "dead end" for your main access road by positioning a burned out trailer home or a couple of burned out cars at the false "end" of the road. Concealing the fact that the road actually continues to your residence.
Lastly, develop a plan to evacuate and evade capture. When faced with a significantly superior force it may be the only viable option. This should include simple, reliable communications or signals such as three blasts on a dog whistle. Your fighting positions and barriers need to be constructed to allow coordinated withdrawal in an emergency. You should establish a rally point and time limit to assemble. I believe this should be a priority in your practice drills. During a real emergency you may be able to rally, rearm and plan your own version of the "snipe and siege" to retake your retreat.

Key messages:

Your rural retreat defense can be visualized as a set of concentric rings:

* Location - Location - Location: High and remote are best
* OPSEC - Think of it as a form of armor or shield: Practice it and protect it.
* Observation Post / Listening Post: Your first best chance to counter attack
* Gates / Fences / other barriers: May slow me down. Might keep you in.
* Fighting positions: Must provide mutual support and allow for evacuation.
* Residence: Last line. Don't become trapped
* People, Planning and Practice

Remember:

* An aggressive and unexpected counter strike can win the battle.
* Stay alert for multiple threats or diversionary tactics.
* Criminals excel at feigning weakness to lower your guard.

Don't underestimate me."

Gets you thinking ....

Sniper-T
10-25-2011, 12:06 PM
audio version:

Interview With A Predatory Survivalist - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO-ezjm5voY&feature=player_embedded#at=177)

AlphaTea
10-25-2011, 04:30 PM
Yea OK.
Its a good read and has some excellent and very useful advice. For fiction.
HOWEVER, IMHO (YMMV) these roving squads of ex military gang banging thugs are pretty much going to be just that. Fiction. he says successful 7/8 times. Not good odds if you are taking casualties. He has "basic military training" Ooh that'll make you fearsome 'til you come across the vet with combat experience.
There will be some of this if TSHTF but these guys will get thinned out rather quickly. The folks who think "Hey, I have a gun, I dont need to prep 'cause I can just take what I want" just assume people will give it up at gunpoint. Here is some news for you. At the stage of the game in that story, the only reason anybody would have anything is because they were already able to defend it. Those who "have" realize that they have nothing to lose by fighting to the death for their stuff because if they give in they will be killed anyway and if they are not killed they will die of starvation. Pretty good motivators if you ask me.The gang probably is not the first group looking for easy pickings.
An occupying force is always at the disadvantage because they will not know about all the resources available to the victims. This story assumes that they can maintain a cohesive unit too. The type of folks who would join a group like that would probably be of the me-me-me attitude and just looking out for number one. It will be a different story when they start getting shot at.
My theory is that these guys would more likely try to be assimilated into one of these co-ops as members to protect them. Safer that way.
Another thing. A roving band that strikes a few times in an area will soon become the targets of vigilante justice. The locals will know where they are eventually and take them out. He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

All that being said, we prep for what we can. OPSEC is crutial.

I really do want to thank Sniper-T for posting this. These are the kinds of things we need to have available to us. There is some valuable content in there. The situations are contrived but the prep ideas are pretty good.

helomech
10-25-2011, 05:39 PM
My biggest defense if the SHTF will be booby traps. I have the supplies, and within a week I can have hundreds of them set up. Would just keep adding them forever. Everything from holes with sticks, to improvised weapons, lots of British ground spikes, snares, and so on. There will be no safe way to get within a half mile of my house, unless you know where everyone of them are.

TEOTWAWKI13
10-25-2011, 07:22 PM
straight from survivalblog...Rawles. This thing has made its way around the interwebs.

Sniper-T
10-25-2011, 08:08 PM
TEOT... Not quite straight, came from my HDD; but thanks for the reminder, I forgot where I got it from. I moved it into my Survivalblog folder... Going to have to check that site out again, haven't been there in a while. Doesn't he have another book coming out in the new year?

Alpha: Ding ding ding! That was my thoughts too (not sayig they're right... just the same). BUT... what happens if you substitute out the term 'military' in all its forms and change it to "____" gangs? whether it be asian, martian, Hells Angels, or whatever! These are people who are organized have a social structure, are used to following orders without question, and doing whatever it takes to accomplish their goal. legal, moral or not.

granted, they will be limited in numbers by Geography, and subject to losing members on raids, but IMO that element has a greater chance for success in terrorizing the 'countryside'

Thoughts?

TEOTWAWKI13
10-25-2011, 08:13 PM
TEOT... Not quite straight, came from my HDD; but thanks for the reminder, I forgot where I got it from. I moved it into my Survivalblog folder... Going to have to check that site out again, haven't been there in a while. Doesn't he have another book coming out in the new year?

Alpha: Ding ding ding! That was my thoughts too (not sayig they're right... just the same). BUT... what happens if you substitute out the term 'military' in all its forms and change it to "____" gangs? whether it be asian, martian, Hells Angels, or whatever! These are people who are organized have a social structure, are used to following orders without question, and doing whatever it takes to accomplish their goal. legal, moral or not.

granted, they will be limited in numbers by Geography, and subject to losing members on raids, but IMO that element has a greater chance for success in terrorizing the 'countryside'

Thoughts?

I believe it drops this month.

bacpacker
10-26-2011, 12:44 AM
The way I look at this story, whether practical or not, there is a lot to be considered in it. The group being raided is somewhat similar to my situation, minus the extra people. Trying to keep any lookout while doing the work we will have to perform will be difficult at best. Still trying to work out details for that part.

AlphaTea
10-26-2011, 04:46 AM
Amen brother

Stormfeather
10-26-2011, 06:36 AM
The funny thing about this, is with my current job working as an OpFor for deploying units, this is how we think. Without going to much into detail due to OpSec restrictions, we watch a unit for a few days during their training, and develop a plan to attack them using current TTP's of bad guys overseas, and we do it. So as I sit there and read the "hypothetical scenario", it reads exactly like one of our attack plans that we work on as an OpFor planner. Kind of interesting, because I know, from doing it day to day, that theres people out there that think like this, mainly because its what I get paid to do on a daily basis.

The Stig
10-26-2011, 10:08 AM
Assuming your SHTF event is, in fact, total melt-down, and not a boring old tornado, I agree there's a lot of good info in these posts to consider. While some might be fancy, the reality is bad people can band together, and in many cases already have, just as easily as good ones.

ETA: Phil Colin's "Invisible Touch" on the airport musak system at 5:00am is your worst nightmare.

Sniper-T
10-26-2011, 11:10 AM
The funny thing about this, is with my current job working as an OpFor for deploying units, this is how we think. Without going to much into detail due to OpSec restrictions, we watch a unit for a few days during their training, and develop a plan to attack them using current TTP's of bad guys overseas, and we do it. So as I sit there and read the "hypothetical scenario", it reads exactly like one of our attack plans that we work on as an OpFor planner. Kind of interesting, because I know, from doing it day to day, that theres people out there that think like this, mainly because its what I get paid to do on a daily basis.

No matter where I am, no matter what I'm doing... I always run scenarios in my head too. whether I am out camping and it is a severe weather system, or a boat motor breakdown. whether it be a car-jacking downtown or a home invasion. Whether... well anything really... While I certainly agree that this is somewhat 'over the top' I think it is a valuable tool to get one thinking about opsec, and to provide additional scenarios to think about.

Storm... without comprimising anything... do you have any 'hypothetical scenarios' that you could share with us?

Anyone else?

Stormfeather
10-26-2011, 07:55 PM
No matter where I am, no matter what I'm doing... I always run scenarios in my head too. whether I am out camping and it is a severe weather system, or a boat motor breakdown. whether it be a car-jacking downtown or a home invasion. Whether... well anything really... While I certainly agree that this is somewhat 'over the top' I think it is a valuable tool to get one thinking about opsec, and to provide additional scenarios to think about.

Storm... without comprimising anything... do you have any 'hypothetical scenarios' that you could share with us?

Anyone else?


Let me first say this, where theres a will, theres a way. Never EVER underestimate the determination/ability of a properly motivated person/group.

Theres a million ways to skin a cat, and none of them are pretty in any way shape of form. Most scenarios we do involve being able to observe and find that chink in the armor.
What person does what habitually? Can we exploit it?
Attention to detail. What are they forgetting? Can we exploit it?
Does the roving security walk a random route, or do they just nascar the perimeter?
Sit and watch it from time to time, you can actually time it within 15-20 seconds how often a person makes a lap around a perimeter in the middle of the night. Its just human nature folks.
Smokers - nighttime smokers lose their night vision for 3-5 minutes after theyve lit a smoke.
Patience is key, the best way to gain the upper hand is to take hostages. Female and children are preferable, it forces people to react emotionally versus tacticfully.

Here is a perfect example, vehicle strayed outside of the view of the convoy, we put the hood up on our truck and flagged them down in the pretense of needing roadside assistance. (ala Randy Weaver incident, we used a female role player to flag them down)
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/Strmfeathr/Its%20Me/OpFor.jpg

Uparmored vehicle of 5 soldiers was taken down quietly within 100yds of a 30 vehicle convoy with nobody knowing, we held them hostage for 3 hours til somebody figured out something was wrong. Two soldiers decided to try and be heroic, so we used them as examples to motivate the remaining 3. It worked.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/Strmfeathr/Its%20Me/OpFor3.jpg


If you look closely, the road curves around to the left, right at the end of that curve, you can see the next vehicle in the convoy, thats how close we was to them, and they never noticed a thing.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/Strmfeathr/Its%20Me/OpFor1.jpg

End result, we used the hostages to run a end around game on the opposite end of the convoy. While all attention was focused on the front of the convoy with hostage negotiations, our main force attacked the rear of the convoy. We all "died" in the end, but not without taking 6 vehicles over causing massive casualties that rendered them combat ineffective. Notice where the orange paintball splatters are concentrated, all on radio/navigation personel. Take out the ability to communicate and navigate, it took the soul/will/determination right out of them.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/Strmfeathr/Its%20Me/OpFor2.jpg


So, take this as a lesson learned folks, this was accomplished with 6 people, 5 males, 1 female, imagine what can be done with a larger group? Plan accordingly, plan to survive, plan to live thru the first 10 minutes of contact, and you probably will.

As an added caveat, in the 2 years Ive been doing the OpFor training, weve only been ambushed one time, and its because we let our guard down, the best defense always has been, and always will be, a good offense.

gunbuilder69
11-11-2011, 04:59 PM
That there is indeed rawles turd magic. dravan assraped used to spew his crap on the old shphincter pad site.
psycologically,rawles invents things to deal with his personal fears and inadequacies. Instead of training and networking like minded combat warriors( because he's a civilian couch commando) he disperses internet fear to mask his own.
Don't reply on what to do,what you'd do,what should be done. Instead,keep training,and share what you know and have experienced with those you have in your contingency plans... to include plans A thru Z.
Go forth and make the posers suffer from thier imagination,and the weak minded followers of wannabe's pray for the comfort of death.
GB69

Stg1swret
11-11-2011, 05:46 PM
When i first saw this , i decided to do a little analysis. Decided it was total crap after i read the we will infiltarte within 50 to 75 yards. Anybody gets that close you had no security to start with.

RedJohn
11-11-2011, 05:46 PM
Smokers - nighttime smokers lose their night vision for 3-5 minutes after theyve lit a smoke.

In the first chapter (and only chapter at this time) of my book, you learn why I never smoked, ever, while on guard duty since that early morning in the Libyan desert, a long, long time ago.

mollypup
11-12-2011, 02:40 PM
In the first chapter (and only chapter at this time) of my book, you learn why I never smoked, ever, while on guard duty since that early morning in the Libyan desert, a long, long time ago.

O.K. I want the book. You got me hooked already RJ!

gunbuilder69
11-12-2011, 07:56 PM
In the first chapter (and only chapter at this time) of my book, you learn why I never smoked, ever, while on guard duty since that early morning in the Libyan desert, a long, long time ago.
Since I've smoked in front of you already brother,I wont lie or defend my bad habits. I will say this tho, back when I was an 0-3,I had every troop going on watch or patrol empty thier pockets.
You'd be surprised the message that was conveyed.still works to this day.

RedJohn
11-13-2011, 01:05 AM
O.K. I want the book. You got me hooked already RJ!

I don't know if I can even call this a chapter. It may just be the prologue.

Stormfeather
11-14-2011, 06:59 AM
When i first saw this , i decided to do a little analysis. Decided it was total crap after i read the we will infiltarte within 50 to 75 yards. Anybody gets that close you had no security to start with.

We do it all the time here in training, on units that have alert watches roving the perimeter. Its alot easier than you think. ive infiltrated into a actual FOB with watch tower guards, and stole vehicles and drove them off site and was never noticed. This is all in a training background of course. You would be surprised how simple and easy it is to infiltrate. All it takes is patience, the balls to do it, coupled with a little common sense, and you can pretty much get anywhere you want.

helomech
11-14-2011, 01:01 PM
We do it all the time here in training, on units that have alert watches roving the perimeter. Its alot easier than you think. ive infiltrated into a actual FOB with watch tower guards, and stole vehicles and drove them off site and was never noticed. This is all in a training background of course. You would be surprised how simple and easy it is to infiltrate. All it takes is patience, the balls to do it, coupled with a little common sense, and you can pretty much get anywhere you want.

But a few good dogs will ruin your plans.

TEOTWAWKI13
11-14-2011, 01:32 PM
In the first chapter (and only chapter at this time) of my book, you learn why I never smoked, ever, while on guard duty since that early morning in the Libyan desert, a long, long time ago.

If you're getting at what I think you're getting at, my dad lost some buddies in Nam who smoked at night...gave away their position.

mitunnelrat
11-14-2011, 07:59 PM
But a few good dogs will ruin your plans.

That's not necessarily true though, either. Like anything else, dogs have patterns, limitations, and behaviors that can be learned and exploited by anyone wishing to do so. They can be an effective layer of a multi-faceted plan, but it definitely behooves us to give careful consideration as to when, where, and how we employ them.

helomech
11-14-2011, 08:14 PM
That's not necessarily true though, either. Like anything else, dogs have patterns, limitations, and behaviors that can be learned and exploited by anyone wishing to do so. They can be an effective layer of a multi-faceted plan, but it definitely behooves us to give careful consideration as to when, where, and how we employ them.

Between the dogs, guinea hens, chickens, and after shtf booby traps no one will be able to get close to my place. My dogs don't even miss the rabbits that try to get across the yard. Might add some geese to the mix soon.

RedJohn
11-14-2011, 08:44 PM
If you're getting at what I think you're getting at, my dad lost some buddies in Nam who smoked at night...gave away their position.

You got it right. But, it is not my buddies that did the dying.

izzyscout21
11-15-2011, 04:09 AM
I busted a guy's face with my M-14 one night because I was able to see him smoking hash in his hidey hole.

RedJohn
11-15-2011, 10:27 AM
I busted a guy's face with my M-14 one night because I was able to see him smoking hash in his hidey hole.

That must hurt, but less than an enemy bullet.

izzyscout21
11-15-2011, 11:57 PM
That must hurt, but less than an enemy bullet.

I meant to say that I shot him.

Stormfeather
11-16-2011, 07:53 AM
I caught what you meant by that! LOL, and yes, Ive tagged a few as well that like to light the smoking lamp late at night when they shouldnt have been!

Stormfeather
11-16-2011, 07:59 AM
That's not necessarily true though, either. Like anything else, dogs have patterns, limitations, and behaviors that can be learned and exploited by anyone wishing to do so. They can be an effective layer of a multi-faceted plan, but it definitely behooves us to give careful consideration as to when, where, and how we employ them.

I agree here too, Infiltration takes on a whole new level if theres animals involved. The best route to this is to do multiple incursions into an area to alert the animals multiple times to gain reactions from the owners. Then you sit back and watch! After 10-15 times in one night of alerting animals, the owners will start to "numb out" to the dogs barking, or the dogs will numb out and quit barking to it. Add in dog whistles that cant be heard by human ears, and you can really amp up the sleep deprivation factor to the owners, stretch this over a few nights, and you can pretty much open up a window to infiltrate unaware at your leisure. Tried and true method folks.

Stormfeather
11-16-2011, 08:01 AM
Between the dogs, guinea hens, chickens, and after shtf booby traps no one will be able to get close to my place. My dogs don't even miss the rabbits that try to get across the yard. Might add some geese to the mix soon.

Would love to try it just for a "lessons learned" standpoint someday! Think of it this way, its the easiest way to learn what works and what doesn't!

bacpacker
11-16-2011, 10:28 PM
Exercises like that are far and away the best ways to learn from. After action reports and good discussions among all involved to make sure everything is covered. Some one will usually have picked up on something minor that can make a difference.

helomech
11-17-2011, 12:12 AM
I agree here too, Infiltration takes on a whole new level if theres animals involved. The best route to this is to do multiple incursions into an area to alert the animals multiple times to gain reactions from the owners. Then you sit back and watch! After 10-15 times in one night of alerting animals, the owners will start to "numb out" to the dogs barking, or the dogs will numb out and quit barking to it. Add in dog whistles that cant be heard by human ears, and you can really amp up the sleep deprivation factor to the owners, stretch this over a few nights, and you can pretty much open up a window to infiltrate unaware at your leisure. Tried and true method folks.

And just what are you going to do whent they dog chases you down? My dogs will attack anything near my yard. Hope you can run through briars faster than a dog can. That dang Great dane can cover some ground quick.

helomech
11-17-2011, 12:14 AM
Would love to try it just for a "lessons learned" standpoint someday! Think of it this way, its the easiest way to learn what works and what doesn't!

After shtf trying would get you killed. I plan on having thousands of booby traps set around my place if the sh*t ever hits the fan, the dogs are going to be way back on the list of things to worry about then. When I send my dogs out they go after whatever they are barking at, they come back after a little while.

RedJohn
11-17-2011, 12:22 AM
We use to carry a .22 suppressed for guard animals. Now I never had a great dane coming at me, but this pistol has been very effective on ops.

helomech
11-17-2011, 01:01 AM
We use to carry a .22 suppressed for guard animals. Now I never had a great dane coming at me, but this pistol has been very effective on ops.

It isn't silent though. When my dogs run into the woods after something, you won't have much time to do anything, and one yelp from the dog is going to turn into heavy gunfire into the woods. But like I said earlier, there won't be but one way in that would be safe to approach my house after the shtf. Booby traps will be everywhere for miles of my house. I really like british ground spikes, very cheap and easy to make.

Stormfeather
11-17-2011, 03:49 AM
OOOhhhh great danes! I used to have a brindle named Maximilian, extremely loyal dog, and was a hoot to watch the girls (aged 11 & 13 ) walk him in the afternoons! I sure miss that dog! Anyways, I see where you are coming from on this Helomech, and I applaud your desire to set up a fortified retreat for you and your family, so please do not take offense to what im going to say ok? As Bakpacker stated, exercises like this are a great way to test your vulnerabilities. So assuming you have everything covered would only lead to downfall if you dont actually have something covered. After action assessments by a "devils advocate" ensure that all avenues are covered. I am in no way saying you arent prepared, or wont be prepared in the future, all im saying, is sometimes is nice to have another persons point of view, especially if they are experienced in infiltration. I have done this with my house, and I do it for quite a few people as a side business. There was even a unit in the Seal Teams called Red Cell (Seal Team 6) whose main job back in the day was to test facilities defenses. This was long before the war on terror and before seal team 6 was a household name. These guys managed to infiltrate almost every known facility and complete the mission, all by thinking outside of the box. Camp David, infiltrated, Nuclear Submarines, infiltrated, Military Nuclear Weapons Storage, infiltrated. its all about thinking outside of the box buddy, sometimes you have to do that to see the path not realized. Look at your facility, and I mean take a serious hard look at it, now look at it from the perspective of an outsider looking in, how would YOU infiltrate your facility? Water infiltration available? Ditches? Sniper stalk? I agree that the dogs are a great deterrent, but its only if they can detect a threat. CS/CN/Bear Spray easily defeats a dogs sense of smell and is a great deterrent if a dog is chasing you, and its easily available at any outdoors sporting goods store like Cabelas, Gander Mtn, Bass Pro Shops, REI, ect ect. If you do hear a yelp, then you concentrate your gunfire into the direction it came from, then you risk the possibility of losing your dogs as well, and since its woods as you stated, then theres available cover for bad guys as well. Also, will the dogs know not to step onto those ground spikes you plan on setting up? See where I am coming from here? While its possible to set up concentric layers of protection, its usually only viable to defend your closest layers. Making it hard to infiltrate can sometimes be enough, but if you have someone who is determined, then you have to plan for that. Ground spikes only work if the person steps on them. So what do you do if someone is low crawling? This aspect of it instantly defeats the whole concept of ground spikes, since there is no walking involved. Im just pointing out aspects on what you have stated so far, imagine how you would infiltrate your facility, then improve on it buddy! If you ever want suggestions, please feel free to contact me via PM if you want to jaw-jack about ways to improve, Ive got a wealth of information, and im always willing to share it with people wanting to improve their situation.

Stormfeather
11-17-2011, 03:56 AM
We use to carry a .22 suppressed for guard animals. Now I never had a great dane coming at me, but this pistil has been very effective on ops.

To actually give everyone an idea of what a suppressed .22 actually sounds like, check out this video, this is with .22lr, using subsonics or .22 shorts, its even quieter than what you hear on this video.

Suppressed .22's - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm8EGRYCZ4g)

helomech
11-17-2011, 12:27 PM
OOOhhhh great danes! I used to have a brindle named Maximilian, extremely loyal dog, and was a hoot to watch the girls (aged 11 & 13 ) walk him in the afternoons! I sure miss that dog! Anyways, I see where you are coming from on this Helomech, and I applaud your desire to set up a fortified retreat for you and your family, so please do not take offense to what im going to say ok? As Bakpacker stated, exercises like this are a great way to test your vulnerabilities. So assuming you have everything covered would only lead to downfall if you dont actually have something covered. After action assessments by a "devils advocate" ensure that all avenues are covered. I am in no way saying you arent prepared, or wont be prepared in the future, all im saying, is sometimes is nice to have another persons point of view, especially if they are experienced in infiltration. I have done this with my house, and I do it for quite a few people as a side business. There was even a unit in the Seal Teams called Red Cell (Seal Team 6) whose main job back in the day was to test facilities defenses. This was long before the war on terror and before seal team 6 was a household name. These guys managed to infiltrate almost every known facility and complete the mission, all by thinking outside of the box. Camp David, infiltrated, Nuclear Submarines, infiltrated, Military Nuclear Weapons Storage, infiltrated. its all about thinking outside of the box buddy, sometimes you have to do that to see the path not realized. Look at your facility, and I mean take a serious hard look at it, now look at it from the perspective of an outsider looking in, how would YOU infiltrate your facility? Water infiltration available? Ditches? Sniper stalk? I agree that the dogs are a great deterrent, but its only if they can detect a threat. CS/CN/Bear Spray easily defeats a dogs sense of smell and is a great deterrent if a dog is chasing you, and its easily available at any outdoors sporting goods store like Cabelas, Gander Mtn, Bass Pro Shops, REI, ect ect. If you do hear a yelp, then you concentrate your gunfire into the direction it came from, then you risk the possibility of losing your dogs as well, and since its woods as you stated, then theres available cover for bad guys as well. Also, will the dogs know not to step onto those ground spikes you plan on setting up? See where I am coming from here? While its possible to set up concentric layers of protection, its usually only viable to defend your closest layers. Making it hard to infiltrate can sometimes be enough, but if you have someone who is determined, then you have to plan for that. Ground spikes only work if the person steps on them. So what do you do if someone is low crawling? This aspect of it instantly defeats the whole concept of ground spikes, since there is no walking involved. Im just pointing out aspects on what you have stated so far, imagine how you would infiltrate your facility, then improve on it buddy! If you ever want suggestions, please feel free to contact me via PM if you want to jaw-jack about ways to improve, Ive got a wealth of information, and im always willing to share it with people wanting to improve their situation.

No offense taken, I appreciate any input.

There is no doubt someone determined enough could get in, nothing is inpenatrable. But with my place, very few people know it exists. Someone would have to travel miles of back roads to even fall upon this place in peace time. So the odds of a well trained group even finding my place is low, I feel confident we could handle the occasional intruder. As far as animals setting off booby traps, it is no different than targeting a species. People walk differently than animals, so you tailor your traps to people.Also people are like animals in a the way that they will take the best path. That is the best way to put somoene where you want them. My first layer of defense is no one knowing about my place, second is someone would have to walk at least 4 miles in the right direction to stumble across it, after that will be booby traps of all kinds, then the woods around my house are very thick, full of picker bushes. Deer and things can get through, but I don't like to have to walk through them. After that is the animals, we have dogs, monkey's, guinea hens, chickens, and will be adding geese. One of these animals will pick up on something, and when one spots or hears something the rest find it. After that is us, I feel we have a set up that is very defendable, but not impregnable. Yes my place is surronuded by woods, but not woods that can be easily walked through. It is very very thick. To go through it you need to cut the trail most of the way.

helomech
11-17-2011, 12:27 PM
To actually give everyone an idea of what a suppressed .22 actually sounds like, check out this video, this is with .22lr, using subsonics or .22 shorts, its even quieter than what you hear on this video.

Suppressed .22's - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm8EGRYCZ4g)

Yeah, shot suppressed .22lr before. About to order my 308 suppressor.

bacpacker
11-18-2011, 01:57 AM
Stormy, my post wasn't based on a defensive. The AAR's I participated in were more from a EOC/EMCOMM perspective. However I would guess the general look at things are close, just different things being looked at.

Stormfeather
11-18-2011, 03:57 AM
Stormy, my post wasn't based on a defensive. The AAR's I participated in were more from a EOC/EMCOMM perspective. However I would guess the general look at things are close, just different things being looked at.

yes, I understood that, was just citing it as it can be used from a different perspective. Look at it from multiple angles, every different angle you look at your AO from, gives you a different perspective, and a different opportunity to refine your defenses.

realist
11-18-2011, 02:51 PM
Helo geese are a great idea and they taste good. I raised them for years and they would let us know whenever anyone came around. Another good bird is ducks. We had mallards and the were as good as the geese. You will not go wrong with either one. As a side line with the other birds you have you will not have any bugs............

helomech
11-18-2011, 03:22 PM
Helo geese are a great idea and they taste good. I raised them for years and they would let us know whenever anyone came around. Another good bird is ducks. We had mallards and the were as good as the geese. You will not go wrong with either one. As a side line with the other birds you have you will not have any bugs............

Yeah, bugs are rare in my yard.

RedJohn
11-24-2011, 02:16 PM
It isn't silent though. When my dogs run into the woods after something, you won't have much time to do anything, and one yelp from the dog is going to turn into heavy gunfire into the woods. But like I said earlier, there won't be but one way in that would be safe to approach my house after the shtf. Booby traps will be everywhere for miles of my house. I really like british ground spikes, very cheap and easy to make.

Oh yes it is. Here my mosquito on a can. I had a Beretta Cheetah .22 with a custom can on it, and it was even quieter than that. On this video, what you hear is the slide and the bullet hitting the backstop.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8ae7tLx5kM

and this is not subsonic ammo, but velocitors.

http://www.thegunsource.com/DisplayPic.aspx?TID=1817

It is really quiet.

helomech
11-24-2011, 04:09 PM
Oh yes it is. Here my mosquito on a can. I had a Beretta Cheetah .22 with a custom can on it, and it was even quieter than that. On this video, what you hear is the slide and the bullet hitting the backstop.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8ae7tLx5kM

and this is not subsonic ammo, but velocitors.

http://www.thegunsource.com/DisplayPic.aspx?TID=1817

It is really quiet.

Just said it wasn't silent, not that it wasn't quite. But you might want a bigger gun for the dogs. I had to kill one of my anatolian's a while back, and it took 2 shots from 10 feet away of 12 gauge 3.5 00 buck. I actually shot it a third time so it would stop making noises. On the first shot he tried to bite the spot that he got hit, and made lots of noise, second shot put him on the ground.