Hoarding or saving? Where do you draw the line?

[ladyhk13]

I have a habit of never throwing away hardly a thing. DH blows out the knees of his jeans and I have a pile for that...the zippers will come in handy some day, the pockets could be removed and sewn on something else (don't know what yet, but I know I'll need them someday), the rest of it will be cut up and made into a quilt. I find fabric that I like for $1.00 a yard and I buy the whole bolt (ok, it's 20 yards but I may have to make clothes with it, or reupholster a chair or braid it into a rug or make a quilt or trade it for something else I need). I find canning jars or lids on sale and I buy every case/box the store has because I know that I'll use them someday...maybe not this year but next...or maybe there won't be any available next year. I start eating yogurt around this time of year so I can save all the containers to start my seedlings over the winter...gonna be lots of them. If I buy new feather pillows I will save the old ones in case I need the feathers for something else. I save the little moisture absorbant packets that come in my pills or in beef jerky and put them all in a big bottle to reuse later......
Does anyone else do this kind of stuff? When I look at things I hate to throw them away if I think I can use them again later for something else. I have plastic bins of material just waiting to be used and old jeans to become someone's quilt to keep them warm when we one day have no power. I don't know if that's the survivor in me or me being a hoarder? Everything is nice and neat and put away so it's not like you see on t.v. but does that make a difference?

[LUNCHBOX]

I think organization makes it saving. You also have plans and uses for the items you keep, thats more than what they portray on those tv shows. If it gets to where you can't walk around in the house then rethink it.

[ladyhk13]

Well I guess I'm still safe then. I keep things in those Rubbermade tubs in closets or on shelves or in the attic. I don't like clutter and everything has a place and my DH is the same way. I did tell him the other day though that we should go out to our range (we have a shooting range on our property) and dig up all the rifle bullets and melt down the lead from the copper. There has to be a use for each one of those...as much as we've put down range there's gotta be a lot of it! Why let it go to waste?

[LUNCHBOX]

If you can get the lead and re-cast it for a muzzleloader that would come in handy. Or even sale the lead/brass and put that $$$ towards something else. (that idea free from the gear pimp)

[ladyhk13]

Probably better to hang onto it and reuse it ourselves...we sold our brass a couple of years ago to a gun shop and made pennies on it. Would have been better off keeping it and reloading it (which is what we do now). Lessions learned. Might be a tradeable item later (the lead)? We don't use muzzle loaders but someone else might and could use it.

[LUNCHBOX]

Good for you on the reloading...you can use the brass and lead in that case. If not, you could still trade it away now or later.

[ladyhk13]

Yup, got my own reloader...can do 9mm and .45. DH does all the rifles on his because he does custom bullets for each rifle we have. We have our bench set up with my reloader on one side and his on the other.

[JustAPrepper]

Dang, Lady! You and I must be on the same wavelength lately! I've been wondering the same thing! I was just thinking yesterday that I feel like I'm already living in during a depression where nothing gets thrown away without careful consideration as to what other purpose it might fulfill.

I save the grocery bags from Walmart but only there because they're white and presently I use them in the bathrooms. Our bathrooms are white so it still looks nicer than having a brown plastic bag from other stores. I fold them all up nicely and put them in gallon ziplocks and stack the baggies neatly on a shelf.

I save bread ties because I use them in the garden. Toss them in a ziplock and put them in a drawer.

I save glass jars of all shapes and sizes. They come in handy for all kinds of things, especially homemade mixes and such and I don't have to use my canning jars.

I've started opening my canning jars carefully and saving the used lids...just in case. I've heard that some old timers used to do it and reuse them. I know you're not supposed to but if things ever get desperate, well, desperate times call for desperate measures.

I wash and reuse tinfoil if it's just a piece I used to temporarily cover something.

I'm sure I do more but that's all I can think of right now.

[mollypup]

I like watching "Hoarders" tv series for some perverted reason. I understand that these people really do have an emotional/mental problem with being unable to throw anything away, and the really sick ones can't even throw their personal waste away. So, I seriously doubt you are a hoader Ladyhk13. Since you keep everything neatly stored and like Luncbox said, if you can easily walk around then you're probably o.k. If you have stuff saved for like 20 years with the intention to use it, but have never used it, it might need to be discarded, I don't know.

My husband wants to accuse me of hoarding but he really knows I'm not. I keep our prep stuff in the basement, neatly organized, and it's purely prep stuff. I don't go on shopping sprees and bring home useless items that do nothing but take up space. The upstairs of our house is nice and clear of clutter and I like it that way. The basement is easy to walk around except for the pile of lumber I got at Lowe's for next to nothing. I bought that to board up the windows when SHTF. He just doesn't like that I prep or the reasons why. I won't go into it as you already know all about it, but needless to say we aren't on the same page as far as prepping goes.

I do let go of clothes that have worn out, haven't thought about the uses you have for them and maybe I should. But the clothes that are still good but the girls have outgrown I give away to charity. Maybe I should keep them for barter or just for gifts, but I don't like them taking up my prepping space downstairs.

Hoarding is very different from prepping, but I can see how the boarder between the two can get blurry to some people. I was in a hoarder's house once when I was a teenager and I couldn't believe my eyes!!! Stuff was all over the place and literally stacked nearly up to the ceiling. I was real skinny then and had to turn sideways just to maneuver down the hall to my friends room. That wasn't prepping, that was hoarding. My heart does go out to hoarders though, they're usually real sweet people but with a serious problem. I guess they have to hit bottom too with their disease just like addicts and alcoholics. When the hoarding is ruining their lives and making them miserable they might ask for help.

I'd love to learn how to make braided rugs out of old bluejeans! I think they would look awesome and last for years. :D

[Gunfixr]

Prepping is acquiring items of need in advance of needing them when they might be unavailable.
Hoarding is piling up everything you might think you could possibly want or need, to the point of excess.
Clearly, the definitions have gray edges. Hoarders typically suffer from a form of OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), and they have varying degrees of control over what they do. Preppers have total control over what they do.
Based on what you've said, you're both a prepper and a hoarder. This is not meant as an insult, as we are exactly the same way, so I speak from experience. Not throwing away broken items because you might be able to use parts from them is classic hoarding. A lot of this comes from older generations who lived through the Depression, and had to do this just to survive, as they could not get replacements for many things. Thus, any kind of repair parts were like gold. We get much of this from family.
I won't throw anything away that has something as a part of it that I might be able to use. My Dad is this way, as was his mother. I like to watch the show "Hoarders" also. They are really us having gone to an extreme level. Things that we still see as junk to be discarded they do not, and therefore keep. It's all a form of OCD, theirs is just much worse.
I hope I'm not raining on your parade, I'm not trying to. Like I said, we at this house are the same. Some hoarding isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as it doesn't get out of hand.
My kids have it, and their rooms actually got to the point where they looked like the tv show houses. I cleaned them, with a shovel and garden rake, and a pickup truck. Two fullsize pickup loads from my son's room, one from my daughter's. And they still have stuff.

[ravensgrove]

It's all about organization and cleanliness I think. Hoarders are neither. A hoarders idea of organization is "that pile over there, if you can get to it, behind that stack of trash". I am sure you aren't keeping broken items and trash piled 3 ft from your ceiling and have tiny paths all over your house...that's hoarding.
Now...Justa might be like me with a terrible case of OCD...or as my husband says..."that's not clean its sterile and you are an Organazi." LOL.

PS: my husband has actually threatened his soldiers for years with bringing me to do inspections. I have that sort of laser vision that can see a speck of dust from 50 ft. Which is exactly why I should probably not do projects like interlocking flooring. I am staining every single tiny crack.....he likes to mess with me and off kilter pictures or move things. The opposite of you, I won't keep anything that is broken or nicked, or torn or can't be properly meaning...it looks like it never broke to begin with...fixed. If it weren't for my husband we would have no memorabilia from nearing 20 years of marriage, I keep nothing except essentials. I think the above post is correct, its two sides of the same neurotic coin.

[ladyhk13]

I have never watched the show, have only seen the commercials. My mom is from a communist country and can make use of just about anything so maybe that's where I get it from. I figure that zippers are pretty expensive so when I start making clothes or if DH breaks one I'll have a replacement. Pockets are great to sew on aprons or craft room hangings to put small objects in or even to replace a pocket that has ripped. I have seen blue jean quilts and they are very cool for boys and if shtf people may become in need of warm blankets so if I have the raw materials all it will take is the labor to create them.
I feel like I can rationalize the stuff I keep or buy since isn't that the reason or the way we prep? I just wasn't sure if I was the only one that did this...you would never know I had any of these things since they are all packed away waiting for the day I need them.
It's like the copper and lead....I know we can't use it right now but at some point we may need it or could barter for it. OCD? Maybe....so does that mean all preppers have some OCD in them?

[mitunnelrat]

I just want to say I think this is an excellent topic and discussion. Very thought provoking, imo.

Enough so I actually need some time to process and consider how to answer properly before I offer up an opinion.

[ladyhk13]

Ok, for the record...I don't keep "broken" items per se. If a dish breaks I throw it away, if a curtain rod bends I get rid of it. I don't keep kids toys since my son is grown now (except for the toys he has decided to keep to pass down to his kids which are packed up in my attic). I have this beautiful comforter that got a rip in the washer. I kept it because it has wonderful braiding/cording on it and I will be able to reuse most of the material. I packed it up and want to make something out of it one day. I don't know what, maybe some pillows. I am very artsy and crafty and love to create so I know that is part of the reason I keep some of the things that I do. I have tubs and tubs of art and craft supplies just waiting for my studio/sewing room to get set up. Working on that slowly now....and it's PURPLE!
I just don't want you guys to get the idea that I save "broken" junk...they are things that can be restructured for something else useful. If it's junk I throw it away.

[The Stig]

Hoarding is what happens when Lunchbox texts you that he's made a gear run.

Saving is what happens when you already have 7 of what he's offering (your money that is).

[Gunfixr]

My kids rooms did look like on the tv show, there was a path in my sons room that would give a mountain goat a challenge.

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that preppers do have at least a bit of OCD. Actually, a lot of people do, and some isn't necessarily a bad thing. When it controls your life, then it gets to be a bad thing.
We don't keep broken dishes, or similar thing either. But serious hoarders do. A 3" long jeans zipper doesn't cost much, probably almost not worth the effort to remove and keep it. However, we here at our house would do the same thing.
I have things I've saved and kept for close to 20yrs for the day I would use them, and that day hasn't arrived yet. Realistically, it probably won't arrive. I also have things I've kept for the day I'd need them, and then couldn't find them, and had to get another. So what exactly was the point? I still do it though. And that is the OCD. That is also the hoarder. It doesn't run my life, and our house won't qualify to be on the tv show. But we have it at least a bit.
Some hoarders are neat, or at least start out that way. The ones on the shows have just let it get totally out of their control. Instead of running it, it runs them. As long as you control it, you're GTG. At least, that's how I see it. I think you kinda have to be a bit of a hoarder to prep well.

[mitunnelrat]

Ok, I've made the same conclusion that many others here have referenced, and its even in the threads title. Prepper vs hoarder - and OCD or not - is, to me, that preppers and those without OCD are able to set limits.

As preppers, we have limits on what items we choose to acquire and save, and further limits on the amounts of those items. Another aspect in the equation of prepper vs. hoarder is that we're able to let go of the items we do have. Whether that be through personal consumption, trade, or scrapping those items that become damaged/ expired. Hoarders seem unable to set those limits or dispose of anything. Its my opinion this will hold true of either group whether or not either one is organized or disorganized.

I feel its the same thing for those suffering from OCD. A person can be super organized, or spotlessly clean, and like keeping things that way without having OCD. There can be periods of disorganization and/ or uncleanliness without worry - wheras it seems an OCD individual is wholly unable to let something sit in the "wrong" place, or will repeatedly clean things even when they're already spotless. i.e. some of them continuing to scrub their hands until they bleed, or wiping glass rings on tables as you pick the glass up to drink from it. The little spot in the brain that sets limits is missing or gone haywire.

I would say, from your description, that hoarding is not an issue in your home, and neither is OCD, because you're evaluating the worth of the items you pick to save. You have limits.

Just my .02

[Gunfixr]

I agree. I guess that was what I was trying to say, although with more words. We all have them both to a degree, and some is really necessary, or we wouldn't do it (prep). But, unlike those referenced on the tv show, we are in control of what we do. They are not.

[ladyhk13]

Ok, I've made the same conclusion that many others here have referenced, and its even in the threads title. Prepper vs hoarder - and OCD or not - is, to me, that preppers and those without OCD are able to set limits.
I do feel that I am able to set limits for things that I keep/buy but other people would ask/say that I have way too much or think I'm nuts for having what I do.

As preppers, we have limits on what items we choose to acquire and save, and further limits on the amounts of those items. Another aspect in the equation of prepper vs. hoarder is that we're able to let go of the items we do have. Whether that be through personal consumption, trade, or scrapping those items that become damaged/ expired. Hoarders seem unable to set those limits or dispose of anything. Its my opinion this will hold true of either group whether or not either one is organized or disorganized.

I feel its the same thing for those suffering from OCD. A person can be super organized, or spotlessly clean, and like keeping things that way without having OCD. There can be periods of disorganization and/ or uncleanliness without worry - wheras it seems an OCD individual is wholly unable to let something sit in the "wrong" place, or will repeatedly clean things even when they're already spotless. i.e. some of them continuing to scrub their hands until they bleed, or wiping glass rings on tables as you pick the glass up to drink from it. The little spot in the brain that sets limits is missing or gone haywire.
well I don't have that problem, that's for sure. I do like a clean house and the dog hair does bug me but I have learned that no matter how many times I sweep the floors as soon as they even look at a floor their hair JUMPS on it and it's covered again. I don't stress over it anymore.
I would say, from your description, that hoarding is not an issue in your home, and neither is OCD, because you're evaluating the worth of the items you pick to save. You have limits.

Just my .02Thank you! Have any of you others out there wondered or worried about crossing that line? Also, how do you deal with people who tell you that you have way too much of something that you really think you are justified in having? I have read some having thousands of rolls of toilet paper...I have no where near that but would like to without having to worry about having to validate my reasons to others. Thoughts?

[bacpacker]

IMO get enough of any item to suit what you feel you may need down the road. You buy it you store it. No one else really has any say about it.
Wish i had thousands of rolls of tp. I would have to build a shed to store it all.

[mollypup]

I'd rather store more important items in the space a thousand rolls of TP would take up. Nothing wrong with using a rag and rinsing it out. And I think you'd be "cleaner" after using a rag than TP. Toilet paper takes up a LOT of storage space. I could fill that space up with food, water, ammo, medicines, clothes, fuel, the list goes on and on..... I have about 60 rolls of stored TP and I'm not getting any more. I have a LOT of rags lol!

[Sparrow]

I think it is pretty simple. Prepping looks like this (mind you this place could use a clean):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vqKxTB-Wh0Q/TDeLoA6uH3I/AAAAAAAAAYM/Otz7Nq3S4QQ/s1600/Pantry+-+6-+7-7-10.jpg

Hording is mental illness at work and looks like this:

http://streetbonersandtvcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/start.jpg

But on the other end of things, ... this is total OCD:

http://itthing.com/wp-content/uploads/Stuff3.jpg

[JustAPrepper]

As for storing the TP, we store the Industrial size rolls that I get from the big box store. They take up very little space and the boxes stack nicely (you can see them in some of the pictures of our Doom Room). I did some calculations and each box contains approximately 41 rolls of Charmin Basic. We have five boxes and are about halfway to the ceiling. Once I reach the ceiling I'll stop and if we ever run out of that I have several packages of wash cloths specifically for this purpose.

[Gunfixr]

LadyHK, you don't need to validate your preps to anybody living outside your household.
Really, you'd only need to validate them to those in your household who share the responsibility financially for the household, since preps takes money.
Only you can decide how much is enough. Really, I think we can all agree that there cannot be enough. We just each decide on what is a reasonable amount based on our expectations of needs and our expectations of being able to reestablish supplying those needs.
Those who don't prep will never understand it, no matter how you try to justify your preps. You can usually justify a week or so to the average person, but once you get past that, they just don't get it. Since they don't think like us, they never will. They will have to undergo a major reevaluation of their survival needs and see their lack or preparedness in order to change. Usually this requires a major event in their lives.
Doesn't mean you can't be friends, you just don't bring up or feed a conversation about preps.
I had to learn this the hard way. I don't talk with many of my friends about my preps, or what they should be doing. I tried. It only brought me grief. Many of my friends now do prep, at least some. With those I will talk about it.

[mitunnelrat]

Thank you! Have any of you others out there wondered or worried about crossing that line? Also, how do you deal with people who tell you that you have way too much of something that you really think you are justified in having? I have read some having thousands of rolls of toilet paper...I have no where near that but would like to without having to worry about having to validate my reasons to others. Thoughts?

My response is dicated by who I'm talking to, and what tone the discussion has. If its rude, I just straight people to "stfu and listen for the pop. "I don't judge your lifestyle, don't get judge me on mine." Or, I'll say "you may be right, and if I'm wrong, I'll simply have extra goods I can use over time and suffer no loss - but, if I'm right, having this stuff could literally be the difference between life and death." My 3rd major position is centered on Judeo-Christian principles and validated in scripture. As I said, it depends on who I'm talking to and how they approach me.

ETA: I am also with everyone else though. There really aren't too many people we need to justify this with.

[The Stig]

My response is dicated by who I'm talking to, and what tone the discussion has. If its rude, I just straight people to "stfu and listen for the pop. "I don't judge your lifestyle, don't get judge me on mine." Or, I'll say "you may be right, and if I'm wrong, I'll simply have extra goods I can use over time and suffer no loss - but, if I'm right, having this stuff could literally be the difference between life and death." My 3rd major position is centered on Judeo-Christian principles and validated in scripture. As I said, it depends on who I'm talking to and how they approach me.

ETA: I am also with everyone else though. There really aren't too many people we need to justify this with.

Bingo.

If someone is generally just kinda rude I typically ignore them all together. They don't really get a vote in the matter anyway.

If someone is really rude I typically ask the person why they feel the need to have such an asinine house, three new cars and take 3 vacations a year. Why would they "need" such a large TV. Since they feel my items are useless and should be mocked I typically go for the jugular and mock theirs.

If the person isn't rude, but misguided, I might try the "would you have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen just in case" or "wouldn't it be nice to have some water on hand in case the power went out/city water was contaminated" sort of reasoning. You end up sounding like an idiot by arguing that having a fire extinguisher is somehow a bad idea/tinfoil/crazy/wacky, so most people will either (1) STFU and move on or (2) be quiet and maybe consider things.

If the person is genuinely interested I'll expand my discussion much further to include preparing for larger events because I think local governments will fold or even getting into the direction I think the country is going (if I really trust people).

Never, under any circumstances, do I get into Mad-Max/roving hordes of zombies as justification. 99.9% of people will look at you like an alien. Why on earth would you turn off someone who may possibly be open by using the worse-case extreme example? That's simply dumb.

Ease them into it by getting them to consider smaller scale events. Then when they are comfortable with that gently guide them to consider larger scale events. Let them figure out the zombie horde/catastrophic scenarios on their own. If they fall in line on the smaller stuff they'll get to the bigger situations.

[mollypup]

I was flabbergasted yesterday morning. The hubster actually said I wasn't a hoarder and that he knew the stuff I was collecting was good stuff that we can use. But he's scared I might turn into a hoarder. That won't happen. I get just a big of a kick getting rid of stuff as I do getting stuff. I love tossing out useless stuff. It makes me feel so free and unencumbered!

[ravensgrove]

We actually have lost friends when we settled for the "duration" out at the farm. I had one friend who routinely thought it was "funny" to refer to me as the "crazy survivalist living on the commune" until one day, the jokes were just intolerable any more...and now he isn't invited over.
Being a business person and overly educated in my prefarm life, I have a great deal of former colleagues who think I have just plum lost my nugget. Its interesting though that they all keep in touch peripherally. And I hear from them from time to time, usually after there was a hurricane on the news or the like and even their mind must wander to..."what if".

By and large we can't hide who we are, this is after all not just our lifestyle but we run a commercial enterprise off the farm. We muse frequently we should start a cult since we already get called a commune...lol, we say we should call it "The Cult". LOL.

People are morons, post shtf that will not change, the world will still be 99% morons.

[ravensgrove]

I think it is pretty simple. Prepping looks like this (mind you this place could use a clean):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vqKxTB-Wh0Q/TDeLoA6uH3I/AAAAAAAAAYM/Otz7Nq3S4QQ/s1600/Pantry+-+6-+7-7-10.jpg

Hording is mental illness at work and looks like this:

http://streetbonersandtvcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/start.jpg

But on the other end of things, ... this is total OCD:

http://itthing.com/wp-content/uploads/Stuff3.jpg

The floor in the first picture gave me hives, the second picture sent me into a panic attack and the third picture was just my sort of crazy :)

[ladyhk13]

since i can only type a little i will just say for now that my preps are more like the 3rd pic-although i do have a lot of home canned items as well. i don't have a basement so all of my foods are on industrial shelving and i try to keep all things organized. my material, sewing stuff and and all non food items are in tubs in closets or the attic. i think being somewhat organized also has something to do with being prior military as well (plus i have 20 years of accounting behind me)...i think all of you military households will agree.
will address other posts later, there are good responses.

[Sparrow]

The floor in the first picture gave me hives, the second picture sent me into a panic attack and the third picture was just my sort of crazy :)

LOL!!! Yeah that place needs a clean. Icky for sure. I didn't notice the floor before, ewww. Just the dust on the bins. :) Looks like water damage stains.

I love PAINT. A good clean and a good coat of heavy oil paint, ... nothing like paint as a cheap fix.

[Gunfixr]

Yes, the world will still be full of morons, but they will die off rather quickly, and in droves.

I had a couple friends who always made fun of us, but then always said they were coming to our house if it all went south.
I always told them to bring their preps with them, we'd all work it out together. Their plan was to come live off our preps.
It was funny until I asked them a question, and they didn't have an answer.
Them: "If TSHTF I'm coming to your house."
Me:" Why, you wanna get shot by somebody you know?"

[Stormfeather]

Yes, the world will still be full of morons, but they will die off rather quickly, and in droves.

I had a couple friends who always made fun of us, but then always said they were coming to our house if it all went south.
I always told them to bring their preps with them, we'd all work it out together. Their plan was to come live off our preps.
It was funny until I asked them a question, and they didn't have an answer.
Them: "If TSHTF I'm coming to your house."
Me:" Why, you wanna get shot by somebody you know?"

Hehe, this is exactly what i say as well!

[mollypup]

I've decided to feed my neighbors for as long as I can. I'll need them to help protect us and especially my kids. If they want some of my food and water, they'll have to give me something I want in return and that's there eyes and ears for coming trouble.

[Gunfixr]

Just make sure you can trust them without a shred of doubt with your life, for that is exactly what you are doing.

[ravensgrove]

Why? You want to get shot by somebody you know?????? :D Officially in my repertoire of best lines ever.

[Evolver]

I've decided to feed my neighbors for as long as I can. I'll need them to help protect us and especially my kids. If they want some of my food and water, they'll have to give me something I want in return and that's there eyes and ears for coming trouble.

Justa and I are chewing on the same idea about our neighbors, they don't know it yet and won't until S does HTF.

[ladyhk13]

I've decided to feed my neighbors for as long as I can. I'll need them to help protect us and especially my kids. If they want some of my food and water, they'll have to give me something I want in return and that's there eyes and ears for coming trouble.

I still believe that if you are in a small community of like minded people it is better to share your resources and knowledge/talents/strengths since i think that there is power in numbers. if someone is really good at growing but someone else has the knowlwdge and equipment to can/preserve it, then why shouldn't they go in on seeds together and share the bounty? Someone has sheep and someone else knows how to spin yarn and knit then why wouldn't they come together as a unit?Things like that. Isn't that how our ancestsors made it through hard times? Turn away the zombies but don't forget your humanity.

[mollypup]

I totally agree Ladyhk13 with everything you said. I hope it works out that way where I live - suburbia. Luckily there is some open land here and there withing biking distance and a few old farmers who still plant a beautiful garden every year. My neighbors, however, probably don't know how to do jack as far as surviving and will most likely be totally dependent on people like me who are very few and very far apart.

[ravensgrove]

I also beleive that a pack get farther than a lone wolf, a tribe farther than a solitary brave. I have talked about this before here, but not only will it be a necessity to forge alliances post shtf...you just can not, no matter what you think, know everything and be everything to yourself indefinitely. More importantly, you need to start forging these alliances now, for all you know shit will hit the fan tomorrow, and this is not an area you want a steep learning curve.
There are people in my community I can not stand, and they can not stand me we are so polarly opposite politically/spiritually...but we still can be civil with one another, and we still go out of our way to not just coexist but create systems for thriving post shtf, not just surviving. I don't have to like you to know you up my chances of survival, and vice versa. I have heard more than one person muse that "yeah Sabrina may be a bitch, but she'll keep us alive".

[Gunfixr]

I agree that you cannot do it all alone, and that wasn't exactly what I was trying to say, and no, no one suggested that.
Certainly in a community of like-minded neighbors, each will bring skills and abilities that will make up for shortcomings, making it all even in the "big picture".
I was talking about the friend who isn't prepping, has no intention of starting, and plans to just live off your preps without helping anymore than he/she can get away with.
Ideally, we would have a community who works together to solve all of life's little problems that have been created by the end of the "have everything you could need/want superstore" lifestyle we've become accustomed to.

[helomech]

Well me and my wife and kids are going to be alone in a real SHTF scenario. I don't have enough food for more people than that, so no one else will be allowed not even my immediate family. Sorry they should have preppared. We have enough skills to do most things, and the skills we lack are not more imoportant than than food and water, that another mouth would cosume.