Burial services

[izzyscout21]

MODS: Didn't quite know where this one would go. Kinda fits a few different categories. Please move to the appropriate forum.

Food for thought:

Got to thinking the other day and came to the conclusion that should the S really hit the proverbial fan for an EXTREME period of time, I had no plan to deal with dead bodies should loved ones, friends, strangers, etc pass on and leave us.

You can't leave the bodies where they lay. And one must be very careful in burying. We dont want to mix dead folks with proximity to drinking water or even the water table for that matter.

Cremation is always an option, but you still normally have to deal with bones. (also I have seen what a burning body looks like/ does, and I have no desire to see/ smell it again).


I know it's morbid, but does anyone else have some thoughts on this?

[ravensgrove]

You are my sorta morbid. We have discussed this and think burning, followed by burying of anything which won't burn is the viable option. This is what we do for livestock we cull which are inedible, so...its probably what would happen in the worst case scenario for humans as well.

[izzyscout21]

You are my sorta morbid.

I do what I can. Since we had not yet touched on the subject, I figured, hey, why not?

[Gunfixr]

Actually, there was a good sized discussion of this very topic a couple years ago, on the other forum.
The general consensus was pretty close between burial and cremation.

I think urban areas will just be uninhabitable for quite some time. It'll just be too much, with nowhere near the space for burial.

[ak474u]

or dead neighbors for that matter. In a long term disaster it would be very important for people in a community to have the ability to dispose of bodies. When the tsunami hit Indonesia, and thailand, they said that the bodies would be smelled around the world if not dealt with in a timely manner. Can you imagine what a mid-sized city under total SHTF plague, or mass die-offs would smell like if it were twenty or so miles away from you?

[Stormfeather]

After alot of discussion on this once before with the wife, we agreed that burial is the route we would go. Mainly because as Izzy said, I have no desire to smell what human flesh smells like when its burning ever again. While it may be more practical, my vote goes to burial.

[sidewinder]

or dead neighbors for that matter. In a long term disaster it would be very important for people in a community to have the ability to dispose of bodies. When the tsunami hit Indonesia, and thailand, they said that the bodies would be smelled around the world if not dealt with in a timely manner. Can you imagine what a mid-sized city under total SHTF plague, or mass die-offs would smell like if it were twenty or so miles away from you?


If there was a mass die off involving a contagion...who is going to want to get near the place to dispose of the dead?

You would also need machinery to dig mass graves.....

[mollypup]

You would also need machinery to dig mass graves.....

I imagine that it will be very similar to what occurred in the 1918 flu pandemic. I think bodies were put outside the home, on the street for the trucks to pick up and take to a public burial ground - a park or field. After the flu passed many of these bodies were recovered and given a proper burial.

This also happened in Europe during the Black Plague where the bodies were put outside and carts picked them up to be taken off to pits previously dug for mass burial.

It will probably stink awfully bad for a while.....we may actually become accustomed to it and it not be so acrid anymore, who knows. But after a certain period the body stops stinking so the stench shouldn't be a permanent thing. At least I really, really hope not.

[RedJohn]

I am for burning everybody. Easier and a lot healthier at all levels.

[mitunnelrat]

If there was a mass die off involving a contagion...who is going to want to get near the place to dispose of the dead?

You would also need machinery to dig mass graves.....

I can assure you its not on my bucket list, as in I wouldn't want to do it, but I also know myself well enough to know I would go do it if needed. I'm just a stubborn prick like that! But then, I also have the NB (as in Biological) C gear help make it a little safer. Machinery wouldn't be a problem for me either. I don't own any yet, but know enough people who do to make it possible.

It'd be hot, nasty, hard work, but if its gonna threaten my health and survival it will get done. One way or another.

ETA - I forgot to mention - I'm still up in the air on whether burning or burial would be my choice. My available resources and the season at the time would factor in heavily, I believe. Is it midwinter and the ground is frozen solid? How much combustible material will it take to fully consume a body, and do I have that on hand? Can I control the burn if it gets larger than I want? Furthermore, how much of this can I report and pass on to local authorities or drop on FEMA? This can quickly become a complicated topic, much less endeavor if the need arises. Especially if we bring other considerations into view. Even the duration of a serious event need not be forever. Will you keep records of the deceased? Mark the locations of graves and know who's there?

I'm gonna stop. I'm giving myself more questions than answers.

[bacpacker]

Very good points you brought up MIT. I read this early this morning and have gave it some thought thru the day. I really hadn't gave it much thought before, but it certainly could become a serious situation really quick.

Around here there are lots of really old cemateries, some of them still in use. Most of them are on hill sides or hill top's. I don't know this for sure, but I suspect the reason was to keep the decaying bodies away from the creeks and springs.

If vehicles still work a tractor and grader blade could be used to dig a mass grave or several. When I was a teenager, my parents and grand parents both had their drainfield go bad. We dug their new ones with dads tractor and a grader balde and pond scoop. It wasn't easy work, but we dug a hole probably 6' deep, 6 ' wide, and somewhere around 40-50' long. I have no idea how many that would hold, but I would guess somewhere around a hundered or so.

I know crematoriums run on gas and achieve very high temps to consume most everything. Just using wood, it would be very difficult to get the temps needed. I'm sure it would get a high percentage, but their would still be material to bury. It would be a horrible situation no matter what!

[Grumpy Old Man]

One consideration for burial is the decomposition of the remains. I would certainly have on hand (and I do but, for chem toilet) quicklime.In a mass grave it would certainly be necessary to speed the decomposition of the remains.

[bacpacker]

MIT, i may have missed it but have you posted a review on what NBC gear you have? I haven't done much research into that area. You got me thinking.

[mitunnelrat]

I've never actually done a review on it. Mostly because I acquired what I have on the sole fact that it mirrors what I was issued in the Army, and I haven't got any solid research, data, or even enough experience to be comfortable advancing an opinion on it, and I have learned there are likely some flaws to what I do have.

What I have specifically is the M40 protective mask and a charcoal based, cloth chemical protective jacket/ pants called a MOPP Suit (Military Oriented Protective Posture). Rubber over-boots and gloves complete the ensemble and provide total coverage

Let me organize what I do remember/ know, see what I can refresh myself on, and also what I can learn over the next few days and I'll post a thread on it. Or, if someone else better versed does, I'll throw my .02 in on that.

[bacpacker]

No big hurry for my part. I was just curious.

[Evolver]

I'll bury friends and loved ones (we have nothing but sand here so the digging isn't too bad) and dragging the enemy away at night to be ether burned or cleaned up by our state bird (buzzard).

[mollypup]

I guess I'll just cross that "what to do with the mass dead" bridge if and when it happens. If it should happen, then I'll let the men deal with the bodies. I'm for just leaving them outside and letting them rot the natural way. Maybe throw some dirt and leaves on top of them to help control the stench, but I'm not digging any graves except for and I ain't even gonna say it cause I don't want to even think about it.

[Gunfixr]

Well, "buzzards gotta eat, same as the worms", to coin a phrase.
I'd at least drag them off so I don't have to smell it.
Friends and relatives definitely get a burial, as proper as I can give it.
Diseased could get burned. At least the heat will consume the bacteria, even if not the whole body.
There might just be something to be said for a bunch of dead laying at the property perimeter. Kinda says "stay off my property".


I just noticed a line below my avatar pic.
How did that get there ???
I'm not mad or anything, and it can definitely stay.
Just curious is all.
It's kinda funny, actually.

[The Stig]

I just noticed a line below my avatar pic.
How did that get there ???
I'm not mad or anything, and it can definitely stay.
Just curious is all.
It's kinda funny, actually.

There is a mad genius who runs around behind the scenes changing those. If I ever catch him we're going to have a serious discussion. :mad:

[Gunfixr]

LOL

[mitunnelrat]

I've been doing some research and reading. The World Health Organization actually seems to have several answers directly on this subject. It appears the level of protection I mentioned is likely to be largely unnecessary.
WHO | Disposal of dead bodies in emergency conditions (http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/hygiene/envsan/tn08/en/index.html)

Physical health risks

The widespread belief that corpses pose a risk of communicable disease is wrong. Especially if death resulted from trauma, bodies are quite unlikely to cause outbreaks of diseases such as typhoid fever, cholera, or plague, though they may transmit gastroenteritis or food poisoning syndrome to survivors if they contaminate streams, wells, or other water sources.

However, they do go on to say the mental trauma is a concern, and bodies should be collected and removed as soon as possible.

The psychological trauma of losing loved ones and witnessing death on a large scale is the greatest cause for concern. It is therefore, important to collect corpses as quickly as possible to minimize this distress. It is, however, not necessary to rush their burial or cremation. This does not allow for the correct identification and record taking of the details of the dead. Nor does it give the time for the bereaved to carry out the ceremonial and cultural practices, which would normally occur after a death.

On that note, they've also recommended standards for disposal:

Burials in common graves and mass cremations are rarely warranted and should be avoided.
Burial

Burial is the preferred method of body disposal in emergency situations unless there are cultural and religious observances which prohibit it. The location of graveyards should be agreed with the community and attention should be given to ground conditions, proximity to groundwater drinking sources (which should be a least 50m) and to the nearest habitat (500m). An area of at least 1500m2 per 10,000 population is required. The burial site can be divided to accommodate different religious groups if necessary. Burial depth should be at least 1.5m above the groundwater table, with at least a 1m covering of soil. Burial in individual graves is preferred and can be dug manually. If coffins are not available, corpses should be wrapped in plastic sheeting to keep the remains separate from the soil. Burial procedures should be consistent with the usual practices of the community concerned.
Cremation

There are no health advantages of cremation over burial but some communities may prefer it for religious or cultural reasons. Factors against it are the amount of fuel required by a single cremation (approx 300kg. wood) and the smoke pollution caused. For this reason, cremation sites should be located at least 500m downwind of dwellings. The resultant ashes should be disposed of according to the cultural and religious practice of the community.

The exception to all of the above is in medical epidemics, where they recommend that only specially trained medical responders handle bodies. My initial impression is that rain gear and durable rubber gloves would almost exceed the needed requirements for most any other situation, with protection increasing from there as the situation warrants. Ebola, especially, is noted as needing a high level of protection. There is an abundance of raw data on the subject of CBRNE response, PPE/ decontamination, etc. and its good bp is in no hurry, lol. This could take me some time to figure out and bust down into discussion points. Hope some of this helps for now though.

[bacpacker]

GFixer I think it's a cool one myself!

[ladyhk13]

I'll bury friends and loved ones (we have nothing but sand here so the digging isn't too bad) and dragging the enemy away at night to be ether burned or cleaned up by our state bird (buzzard).

Dude, when I lived there the state bird was the mosquitoe!!!

[Evolver]

Dude, when I lived there the state bird was the mosquitoe!!!

Yeah there are a few of them also. :)

[mollypup]

Very good information MTR. Thanks! I think the last paragraph about cremation and the reasons against it are valid. And if the bodies are infected with a lethal biological disease (anthrax, etc...) it might be best to bury them and not cremate them. Don't need to be making aerosols of the disease to be carried by the wind to healthy people.

[Grumpy Old Man]

GFixer I think it's a cool one myself!

I as well oh Lord of the Chicken Coop. Oh well, I guess I don't rate as highly as you 2 notables as I am still what I was when I came here.

[mitunnelrat]

Just wait, Grumpy. The mad genius altering our titles strikes when you least expect it. The effect is always awesome from what I can see

[Sniper-T]

I am for burying as allowable. I have a 1949 forson major tractor, with a backhoe and loader, so as long as I have something that resembles diesel I'll go with this. if it is trruly nasty, I'd probably dig a big deep hole for the masses, and just shovel fill over top to cover as they're added. I would also dig several small 'graves, for family/friends, cover as a pit trap, and then modify as necessary.

The other option would be to dig a bunch of holes 6+ feet deep, lined with spikes, as true pit traps, and then add fill and reposition the stakes as need be.

Yup Izzy... pretty morbid!

[bacpacker]

MTR that really good info you posted from the WHO. That answers most questions I had. There are some things that could get out where extreme precautions would be needed, but generally that's not gonna be the case. It will always be the case where the local water sources need to be protected.

[izzyscout21]

Yup Izzy... pretty morbid!

I Know. Since death is a fact of life and at some point due to natural death or reasons of calamity, we may have to deal with this issue. Thought I'd throw it out for discussion. So far based on the answers, I'm glad I did. There's been some really worthwhile conversation and sharing of information generated in this thread so far.

[RedJohn]

I just noticed a line below my avatar pic.
How did that get there ???
I'm not mad or anything, and it can definitely stay.
Just curious is all.
It's kinda funny, actually.


There is a mad genius who runs around behind the scenes changing those. If I ever catch him we're going to have a serious discussion. :mad:

What are we talking about?

[izzyscout21]

the karma titles

[RedJohn]

I thought so, but he said below the avatar. As it is above, you understand the confusion.

[Stormfeather]

I am for burning everybody. Easier and a lot healthier at all levels.

You think that, until you have to live near one of those burn pits for 6-7 months, your mindset may change on that matter.

[RedJohn]

You think that, until you have to live near one of those burn pits for 6-7 months, your mindset may change on that matter.

I am talking about friends and relative, which is very, very small circle. The rest can rot for all I care as I won't be anywhere close to places where there are dead in numbers.

[helomech]

Just wait, Grumpy. The mad genius altering our titles strikes when you least expect it. The effect is always awesome from what I can see

Yeah, mine changed a while back.

[Gunfixr]

I thought so, but he said below the avatar. As it is above, you understand the confusion.

Sorry, I have moments of dyslexia occasionally.

[Gunfixr]

I have a curiosity question of Stormfeather.
Which is worse, the smell of the burning dead, or the rotting dead?
I only ask as I live in a heavy urban area, and there will be lots of dead here. There will not be the space for burial.

[TEOTWAWKI13]

Just wait, Grumpy. The mad genius altering our titles strikes when you least expect it. The effect is always awesome from what I can see

I've been waiting for that mad genius to show up. Just to see what he might have to say... :)>

[TEOTWAWKI13]

OK, I know you're all not gonna be big fans of my answer posed as a question, but it's all I got...you've all read One Second After, right? Remember in the book there was a major die off, first because of no meds, etc, then for other events. They used the local golf course as the burial grounds. Sounds a little dramatic and "fictional", but it could work, right?

[Stg1swret]

Any large open area that doesn't drain into a watershed could be utilised to bury mass casualties.