Morality When SHTF

[izzyscout21]

Here's some food for thought. Take a minute to mull it over.

You count yourself a survivalist, you read, you contemplate, you calculate the possibilities and risks of future events, you plan extensively for those disasters and events, you prudently make purchases and dutifully prepare for yourself and family if you have it.


SHTF . . . . some where, some time maybe only for someone else you know.
What do you do? Do you share your prep resources? Your time, your labor, your money, your preps ( food, fuel, medicine).............?


If you must travel to your BOL, you may have to go passed thousands who are crying out for help, who need to be "saved". If you are Bugging In, you will have to hear the knocking, the ringing, and pounding on your door wanting your refuge and help. Maybe there is no one at your door, all is quiet for you and you are safe, but, you know others aren't. You must sit safe knowing your friends, family neighbors are suffering something, somewhere... You must now walk passed, close the door on, say no, hang up on, withhold medical intervention , or otherwise not go and offer help . . . to some one who is worse off than you.

Maybe they did not think to prep, maybe they lost their jobs before they were prepared enough or had something "worse" ( possibilities too numerous to list) happen to them. Maybe the SHTF only for someone else and not you ( not a mass event).

You must steel up your heart, wish them well, and continue with YOUR survival, your journey, mustn't you?.

Can You?

What do you chose to do?
Do you have the strength to NOT be compassionate?
When can you afford to be a Good Samaritan?
SHOULD you be a Good Samaritan?
Can you be a Good Samaritan AND a Survivalist?
Do you have the strength to NOT offer help if it means your survival could be compromised?


I made a point in another thread about the unsafe practice of shooting at an airborne can without truly knowing what was beyond your immediate control. What if one of your stray rounds had hid a child? What if that same child fell into a pit of punji sticks around my property? Maybe even a bear trap?What if? These are just several of a myriad of examples I could use.

Just because S has HTF, doesn't mean that we are without some level of common law and morality. Whether you draw your convictions from your religion or another source, the fact remains that there is SOME form of basic human law. That applies now just as much as when it all goes south.

I'm of the thought, as I'm sure most of you are, that I would do ANYTHING to protect my family and our supplies. But where, pray tell, should we draw the line? Someday down the road, I will have to live with the results of the choices I have to make.

We all know that often times an armed response is the ONLY response. I'll be the first one to admit that one. Many of us make mention to what we would do to someone "if". I just hope that for all the talk of what we "say" we would do, we're prepared to live with those actions.

There are just some lines that I don't want to cross.

[helomech]

In a real SHTF event, I mean totally on your own for ever maybe. There is no way I would share any of my preps with anyone but my wife and kids. Now any other disaster type event, when I know I can rebuild my preps than sure I will share where I can. Done it many times during the hurricanes where I used to live. I knew it was temporary and I had plenty to get us through the bad times.

[The Stig]

This is one of those questions that is likely only going to be truly answered when we are faced with the situation. It's easy to sit in the sterile environment of our computer-rooms and say "screw 'em they didn't prepare!". Is it so easy when you look into the eyes of your best friend who refused to lift a finger to prepare, or worse yet, his innocent children?

There will be a balance too. Can you help everybody? No, and you can run through a lot of preps doing so and leave your family in danger. You should use discretion and judgement here. That said, being a lone wolf is the thing of movies and books. Having a core of people willing to work in return for short-term assistance could be a real benefit in a long-term scenario. That's something to mull over right there. What value can you put on friends and neighbors who are "in your debt" because you helped them and their families in a time of need?

Ultimately, in a true total-meltdown sort of scenario there will still be a morality. Will it be the same as now? Hell no, because our situation has changed. The bar will shift in accordance with the situation. If it's kill or be killed, you don't stop and think about the other guy's family or if dad gave them enough hugs. You fucking kill them as fast and hard as you can and sort through the mess later. It may be that you have to make some hard choices that effect someone else's kids in favor of your own. That will be hard but the bar has changed.

That said, I do think the internet notion that people will walk around killing men, women, children, pets and livestock like some sort of post-apocalyptic executioner is totally flat retarded. Some will attempt this, for sure, but for a short while...until they run out of ammo or someone else kills them.

At the end of the day I *hope to God* I don't have to make those really hard choices. Knowing that the bar for morality will shift in a total-meltdown is one thing. Facing it is a quite another.

ETA: At the risk of sounding sexist I'm very interested in hearing what the women members have to say about this subject. I have a feeling it will be far more advanced, practical and workable than us knuckledraggers. :)

[izzyscout21]

I used the food as an example BTW. I could have easily used the fact that I dont think that everyone that shows up at my door does not deserve to be buried out back under the oak tree.............

[The Stig]

I used the food as an example BTW. I could have easily used the fact that I dont think that everyone that shows up at my door does not deserve to be buried out back under the oak tree.............

As we discussed offline, I think this is a fantastic subject and I believe we have such a good group of mature and reasoned members this is going to spur some fantastic conversation. I'll be interested to see how this one evolves because it's such a deep question.

[bacpacker]

This is a tough question. Like Helo said, and I tend to think most everyone on here would agree, my family will come first in both long and short term(recoverable) events. In a long term what you have is all you have kinda event. I tend to think I will still be family first and then decide based on what happens and who is asking for help. I will be much more likely to assist a neighbor or good friend than I would be a total stranger.
Along with this I think that the attitude of someone asking for help will make some difference. Someone coming up demanding food, supplies, whatever, because I have it and they don't will be shown off the property really quick with nothing to show for their efforts. OTOH someone who is offering to barter or work for assistance will get a much longer look and is much more likely to be helped out.
Like Stig mentioned, having someone trading work for food would go a long way for small groups. Probably a lot further than what I'm thinking right now.

[Optimist]

Any kind of production, be it food, materials or metals is going to be a lot more labor-intensive if the grid and the gas pumps go down. No tractor? Need mules. No mules? Need many hands....

[realist]

This is one subject that if you are really preparing you should have thought about. You need to be in the proper mindset. You have to try to think through the different scenarios so that you are prepared for when they occur. Frankly these type of scenarios suck because you have to be assertive and make a decision. So how to you make them? You need to incorporate them into what you are planning whether it is a CME, storm or zombies. Where are you going to draw the line? Obviously your attitude should change depending upon the length of the incident, short vs. long i.e. hurricane vs. a pandemic.

One other thing that Izzy hit on is that some people have set out booby traps. They are to keep people out, everyone. So what if you do kill a child with one of them you are just as responsible as if you shot them.

When I first started prepping I was by myself and was invincible. Now I’m much older and have a family. It has finely gotten through my thick skull that I can’t do everything by myself. We will need others so plan accordingly. I am constantly looking around at the various people I know and am sizing them up for a “what if scenario.”

So what are your morals? If you have no morals or scruples then you have nothing. I am trying hard to improve everyday but I know I can do better, that is my goal.

[Sniper-T]

I used the food as an example BTW. I could have easily used the fact that I dont think that everyone that shows up at my door does not deserve to be buried out back under the oak tree.............

Be very careful with this line of thought Izzy. Oak trees have wide spreading roots, and too much digging around them will permanently damage them. Also, they are very suseptible to changes in PH, so unless you want to kill all your oak trees, you don't want to be burying people under them.

Aspens or poplars on the other hand, grow like weeds, and if you hack a couple roots, they will sprout a pile of sucker plants and carry on.

practicality aside, the morality issue is not something that is that difficult. IMO. We make decisions everyday that we have to 'live' with. That homeless guy at the liquor store, did you give him any change? food? did you even look him in the eye? Did you have a second thought about him later? ever again?

What about that accident you saw? that kid you saw pocketing some stuff at the store?

All of these, and many more things are all moral questions that we subject ourselves to daily. And this is in times of peace and/or prosperity; the only thing that will change in SHTF is the severity of the choices. Do you ignor the homeless guy, or shoot him? Do you report the kid thief, or shoot him? What if he was stealing from you, or your family?

At the end of the day, we as people are very adaptable, we will do WHATEVER is necessary to survive and to carry on. Dealing with the morality after the fact is something that people as individuals will have to do independantly. We wont have shrinks, we wont have VA hospitals, the term 'post traumatic stress syndrom' could be used to describe Everyone.

I've had to make some hard decisions in my life, and had to live with my choices, These kind of choices and how we deal with them later, is again what makes us human. The fact that you are even questioning your morality says a lot about you as a human being. That is what seperates us from the animals. A wolf or a lion or a coyote will kill for food, for sport and for fun. They do not question the morality of they're actions, they are predators and that's what they do. If I have to shoot or trap predators because they are taking too much game from me, I do not feel guilty, I do not feel bad. I did what needed to be done (as with hunting for food)

If Some MZB comes knocking on my door, looking to dis-place me, use me, abuse me, steal from me, etc... then I will treat them as the predator they are, and cull them as necessary. and After I bury the bodies under the poplar tree out back, I'll go home for some homemade icecream.

IMO

[realist]

Sniper you are right. Out here we have Heritage trees which are just old oaks that contain more fire wood. However I would venture to guess it you were to put too much under it you might kill it and then the tree police would get you. You would problem go to environmental Hell in that case.........Poplars, I will remember that.

[Gunfixr]

You're right, tough question. It is easy to sit behind my keyboard and say what I would do, right or wrong.
However, I have thought a fair bit about this very thing, because I've had to. My wife is the youngest of 9 siblings. None of her family get along. Oh, they're very nice when face to face, but before they even get back home the backstabbing is on in earnest. My wife has come to not really want anything to do with any of them. For the most part, they are very vain, and so live for the moment, with no thought for the future. Should SHTF, they'd all be at the door. They already know we prep, as they've heard how well we've fared after the various hurricanes.
So, do I turn down my wife's whole extended family, since to let them in, they'd consume all our preps like there's no tomorrow?
Then there's my family. I only have one sister, but she acts like she's about 8yrs old, not over 40. My dad takes pretty good care of himself, but not sure how much prepping he does, I'm thinking not a whole lot. My dad could keep himself in check, but my sister would be just like my wife's family.
So do I let them in, or turn them away?
By turning them away, I probably kill them.
By letting them in, I probably kill my own family.
Tough choice, with no win, only degrees of lose.
Hopefully, I won't have to make it.

[ravensgrove]

I am hesitant to answer this question because once upon a time, I answered this question over at that "other website" and from that day forward was treated like holy hell.

A society, and an individual, must be judged in part by how it treats its sick, elderly, defenseless, impoverished et all. No, Charlie Brown, we do not let them all starve. If you do, you immediately have become what you preach against day in and out...you have become a sheep. For a leader, never turns people away who were brought to them by God to lead.

I would indeed, be that rock soup farmer, like Mother Theresa feeding every last straggler. But I also know that I have the charisma, pressence and fortitude to inspire people to not just leach off of me, but jump in and get to work. In fact, I am counting on the zombie hoardes...a farm...is alot of work for one gal with electricity....post shtf, Ima need some help.

I challenge everyone to start thinking in ways that see post shtf as a time of infinite possibility and abundance if we make it so. This dystopic thinking, gets us nowhere. Certainly doesn't truly prepare you for what it is to come, how much food can you really store? Eventually it will run out.

I'm no Quaker mind you, I'd certainly have no problem testing out our Burial thread scenarios if attacked. But, I am not willing to compromise my integrity just to SURVIVE. I intend on THRIVING post shtf....zombie indentured servants and all ;)

[Gunfixr]

Sorry you were treated like holy hell "over there".
Only you can make the decisions that are right for you, and while anybody else may disagree, they cannot make your decisions. They should respect your decisions, and you for who you are, not what they think you should be.

[ladyhk13]

This thread almost goes hand in hand with my "Hoarder" thread. How much can you actually store, save, stock up on for your own family? How much of that can you spare for others? Are you willing to share with others? Who makes that decision? The husband? The wife? Who is allowed to come in? The family member who made fun of you and gave you a hard time for years and never saved a damn thing or your neighbor who you know will help you plant your garden in the spring? I don't want to turn down either but my husband may say otherwise. Will we fight over who gets their way? Is it worth fighting over? Do you just say ok, no one comes in and then be stuck all alone?? No one can survive alone. So where are you then? Can anyone even say right now at this moment what they will do when the time comes? I would love to be able to but I honestly cannot. I want to help wherever I can and I know I am much more open than my husband. I think that most women are like that and more men are like my husband. MAG's are so important before SHTF so we have a support system in place so that the numbers coming to our door will be lower. The more preppers we can surround ourselves with the better. Spread the word!

[LUNCHBOX]

OK, I'm gonna give this one a try.....I will agree with every other answer that "yes, I will defend my family no matter what" However, and this might bring some comments off line while you read but hear me out, depending on the numbers, if I came across a father/mother/kid/kids on my way out of my area then I would not turn them away. You have to look at this question in different situations.

1) This guy/family is harassing and forcably wanting to take your things...end of story.
2) This guy/family is in need of your help and grateful...I help them for 1 primary reason at first-NUMBERS, you and your limited family will not make it without numbers. I may cut my food in half but at least I can go try for more food with more numbers. You can not cook, clean, work or pull security/sleep without numbers. I may only have 3 or 4 adults in my group and thats not enough to do all that needs to be done. If your family is alone in this you might want to think about this one very hard. Remember, I'm not saying you borrow a bus and go trick or treating for people but you will may need some to get through whatever is thrown our way.

This is of course an opinion of myself and a select few others that have discussed this.

[ravensgrove]

The idea of NUMBERS and "many hands make light work" is greatly underestimated in survival/prepping discussions. As a gal single handedly running 7 acres...let me tell you something....you have absolutely no idea the sheer volume of work involved. This is the exact reason I barter out 4 of our 8 CSA shares. I need the help. Further, there are certain things, it is almost impossible to do with one set of hands...fencing, tanning large hides, even basic livestock husbandry like trimming hooves etc.

As an example of the stamina involved: I am up and outside at 4 am. I come back in at 5:30, get kids off to school, and am back outside from 8:30 to noon. I come inside, run our soap enterprise until 3, pick up kids, and am back outside from 3:30 to 6, then I come in feed dinner and work on the soap enterprise/grad school work from 7 to about 10. From 10 to midnight I work on my house chores and school work and I am lucky to get to bed at about midnight most days, and then I am back up at 4 a.m. If you kept up, I am doing 7 1/2 hours outside every single day, to keep this farm going by myself in the winter. Do you have that sort of stamina? There is no way I could keep it up year round, and during the growing season forget it, even if I was outside 20 hours a day, there is absolutely no way I could keep up with all the baby animals, gardens etc myself. During the 10 days I redid my floors I basically worked 20 hours a day either flooring or working outside to get it done.

Again here, I think its important people reskill NOW, so you really have an idea what you are talking about when you say...I'm going to be a lone survivalist at my cabin, and become John Seymour of gardens and trapping and hunting even though I have never done any of the above in my life.

Trust me...it ain't as easy as it looks. The day Big J retires I am throwing the largest FTA the world has ever seen...you are all cordially invited.

[Grumpy Old Man]

I'll chime in by saying that my moral compass will remain the same pre or post SHTF. The basis of that compass is Mosaic Law and the New Testament.

That being said, in my situation as a "seasoned citizen" I doubt that my family will make the 1600 mile trek here and I obviously won't make the trek back there.
I have close friends here of a like mindset but this is a area considerable variance of opinion. All the typical "defend the compound" scenarios have been discussed ad nauseum, and still most of us have no real good idea on what our responses should be to those who come to us for assistance.

How does one tell the difference between someone who is genuinely in distress versus someone who is a Trojan Horse?

How far do you escalate when dealing with an aggressive individual or group?

How much do you share and with whom? How many can you afford to share with? What, if any, obligation do you have to strangers?

I have no easy answers to these questions, but I do have my moral compass. "In as much as ye have done it for the least of my brethren ye have done it for me". The important part of that is to discern who are His brethren and who aren't. I'll rely on the still small voice to direct me in that regard and take each situation as it comes.

Sorry to stray into the spiritual side of things, but it colors my thinking and my actions in all I do. Just my $20.00 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation).

[Stg1swret]

I will remain the same moral person I have always been. My Christian up bringing will be the main guide. Some common law along with Constitutional principals will guide my lawful conduct.

[izzyscout21]

So far, I've been really inpressed with the maturity of the answers in this thread.

What I appreciate most is the respect and lack of backbiting. Especially since this is a tough one to discuss.

Ya'll are a heck of a group of folks.

[bacpacker]

Well put Grumpy!
Raven you are an amazing person. All the stuff you get done, raising kids, farming, running a buisness, going to school. There is not enough time in the day. Be sure you are taking care of yourself as well.
This is a very hard question as far as how to determine the bad guys from someone you can trust and rely on? There has been a lot of good discussion so far. I am looking forward to what else is discussed.

[eagle326]

I'm must say that I'm just totally amazed at the high caliber of discussion here. Everyone understands the other members thoughts and don't try to change their views. Each member doing what they believe is right for the situation at hand.

As for myself I'll do what I need to do to feed and protect my family. That said each situation with approaching person or group is in it's own way a test of your morality as a human being. We will not know exactly how we'll react until that very moment. As has been stated numbers will hopefully extend our survivability. And the more we have the better chance we have of judging the true intentions of those approaching us. The greater number of eyes and minds will enhance the chances of seeing the others intentions.
The unknown future is a what if plan in the sense that we don't know exactly what will befall us. Hopefully we'll all do the best we can to survive and help ourselves and those who honestly need a helping hand and are willing to forge an alliance through work or whatever is needed to bring forth a new generation and a morally sound way of life.

I've been to war and have seen it's ugliness and have contributed to it. I have no desire to revisit it but I understand that sometimes you have to do things you dislike and am willing to do so if I have to ; But I will do my best to keep my morals and humanity as best I can.
This is on the top of my list as the best threads ever started. I really like the fact that members respect others opinions without getting into a pissing contest.

[The Stig]

Just another thought to add to the conversation.

Reading a different thread, on a different website about a different topic but the comment was made that in ye olde days folks lived and worked the land around their huts/homes. But when danger reared it's head in the form of raiding parties or invading armies, what did they do? They'll all made tracks to the castle, batted down their hatches and went all midevil on someone ass.

The idea that civilizations across the centuries used this model as defense is instructive. Forget the castle part, but notice how the lowly surfs and workers responded. Did they mount a defense in their home? Did they go all "lone-wolf" and try to engage the raiding parties on their own? Did they run off into the woods and hide under a rock?

No, they banded together and used their mutual strength to reply/battle the threat.

That people have done that across the ages might be somewhat of a clue for us in modern times. While we won't be running for the castle, or even forming militias for common defense (although that is possible), the idea that the community banded together to deal with a threat is something that shouldn't be ignored when a modern day SHTF launches us back into the stoneage.

[Gunfixr]

Well, I don't know how many here are living in the urban jungle, but I currently do. I would like to move out to the country, but in the current economic state, it's just not doable. So, I persevere. Almost everybody who would approach post-SHTF would be looking for a handout, without any help, or for a way to get inside to take us out and get what we have. That's just the demonstrated mindset around here.
That said, I live in a small neighborhood that is fairly old, with us being just about the newest family, at 11yrs here. There have been a couple small events, hurricanes, after which we have banded together and worked for the common good of the neighborhood. This does give me hope. The mindset mentioned above is for the city overall. We are a relatively quiet neighborhood surrounded on 3 sides by rough neighborhoods, and on the 4th by a military base.
After a real SHTF event, I am hopeful that we would band together for the common good, but I hold baited breath. The "takers" will come in droves. The base will lock down, so we will be on our own.
Like many here, I will have to make my final decision on who to help and who to turn away as it comes. It will be tough. I will not try to be a dictator, my wife and I will make these decisions as much together as we can. She is pretty good at character reading, actually. We will get through as best we can, as we always have.

If all else fails, I can kill them and eat them, knowing they are well fed on my preps, LOL.

[The Stig]

If all else fails, I can kill them and eat them, knowing they are well fed on my preps, LOL.

Well, that is certainly one way to look at a situation. :)

[bacpacker]

Tough situation there. At least you know up front what you are looking at dealing with.

This also opens up other things that haven't yet been talked about much. The area's most folks here live in. Some folks live in the middle of no where. Others suburbia, still others like gunfixer in town and in bad situation. Probably a large variety of property sizes as well. What works for one groups situation most likely won't work at other places. This really is a hard topicwith many considerations needed.

[mitunnelrat]

Excellent topic izzy! Seems like you've really been hitting them out of the park lately.

There's so much of what's been said already that I totally agree with, which mirrors my own principles and "community based" thought process. I want to be able to do more for my own community than I did for Joplin, and there's no reason I shouldn't be able to given the fact I'll be on home turf. In past posts I've detailed plans on utilizing my personal resources for community gain, I've mentioned wanting to set up a charity based disaster relief team, and something I've recently discovered that could dovetail into that quite nicely is acquiring a degree in emergency management so I could work at it professionally as well.

Progress on those bigger plans has waxed and waned with different events in my life this past year, but something I keep in mind is that our thoughts and actions today will impact the decisions we make tomorrow, regardless of the circumstances.


"Watch your thoughts; They become words. Watch your words; They become deeds. Watch your deeds; They become habits. Watch your habits; They become character. Character is everything." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

[izzyscout21]

Excellent topic izzy! Seems like you've really been hitting them out of the park lately.




Thanks, bro. I've been trying. Score one for the young buck.

On another note, Tunnelrat, I've been real impressed with your thoughts on the community involvement. It's one of the things that inspired this thread,

[mitunnelrat]

Thank you, too! And you're welcome.

[helomech]

Tough situation there. At least you know up front what you are looking at dealing with.

This also opens up other things that haven't yet been talked about much. The area's most folks here live in. Some folks live in the middle of no where. Others suburbia, still others like gunfixer in town and in bad situation. Probably a large variety of property sizes as well. What works for one groups situation most likely won't work at other places. This really is a hard topicwith many considerations needed.

Exactly, most of my defense is that very few know where I live. And I just don't see someone accidently finding my place. So I am not expecting much trouble out here, maybe the occasional drifter (at most). I know lots of people don't understand just how many dirt roads there are in east Texas, but even in a car there is no way you could drive all of the ones in my county in a week. There are just so many, and lots of them don't go anywhere anymore.

[JustAPrepper]

I tried to respond to this a couple nights ago but couldn't pull my thoughts together in a coherent manner. Let's see if I can do it tonight...

Like Gunfixr, we live in what could be considered a pretty rough patch of town. When I first bought this house I nick-named it my "Little House in the Hood". The "hood" and government subsidized housing is not much more than a stone's throw away outside this little neighborhood of 220 houses. The oldest section of the neighborhood started in the late 60's with additions in the 70's and later in to the early 80's until it was built out. It's made up of owners, renters and all ethnic backgrounds. Some people take pride in their properties, others could care less. Some folks are neighborly, others won't even look at you. It's a strange mix to say the least. There isn't much "blending" going on but during the hurricanes of '04 when we got slammed back to back with Frances and Jeanne within three weeks of each other several of us on my street banded together and did what we could for each other but we've had several turnovers since then. I'm not sure I hold out the same hope should something happen in the future.

And like Raven, I will do what I can to help those in need. It's a part of who I am and that won't change. I purchase small bags of beans and rice whenever I can and put them in a seperate storage area so I have small amounts of something to share without touching our main stores. But more importantly, it's something about our garden. Something I'm not sure I can put in to words that any one would understand. It's almost like a "Calling". I feel compelled to learn how to garden in this God Forsaken bug and disease infested area. Nobody in our area is growing anything. We've looked by driving through the neighborhood several times a year and checking Google Earth to the see the hidden yards of our neighbors. I can't blame them...it's too hard...but I can't give up. I "need" to learn this skill and find ways to overcome the challenges because I really, honestly believe that what I learn now will be valuable to everyone around me in the future.

I know I've been heavy on the Possesives like "I" and "me". Evolver is every bit as much invested in The Patch as I am but I'm telling this story in my own words and how I feel about it. His needs may be different than my own and he may feel differently about our garden. To be frank, I'm not sure we've ever discussed it at this level. A few nights ago we were standing on the porch talking about how our plants were failing from a probable infestation of Root Knot Nematodes. We were both cursing like sailors and damning our luck. When I got done cursing I said..."It's a lesson. We're supposed to learn to work through this" He looked at me, cursed some more and came in the house. I cursed a few more times myself, came in and went to bed knowing that this is a lesson I'm supposed to work my way through because people will depend on our knowledge some day.

Having said all that, having a good heart doesn't mean I'm a sucker. I won't hesitate to feed some N'er Do Well a Lead Sandwich if he thinks he can come cruising up to my door demanding food or if I find someone prowling through The Patch looking for a midnight snack. I'm generous but I'm not stupid and I will never be taken advantage of.

[izzyscout21]

^^ Well put JustA. Well put.

[realist]

Having lived in the hood I always felt like a fly in milk. Since it was an uncomfortable place to live I never had any real attachment to it. It was my opinion that I would get out as soon as I could and that is exactly what I did. My plan was to leave at the earliest hint of problems. This was relatively easy since I lived alone. I knew it was time to leave when I woke up one day to find my neighbor out front complaining about his car being shot up. When I told him that it was only a car he told me that he had been in it and it had occurred in our parking lot. Things were just getting too close so everything I did after that was with the goal to get out. All you can hope for it better things to come, but you have to make them.

Raven I lived on my Uncles ranch over the summers when I was in high school. We were up at 0400 to milk and feed, afterward it was breakfast, and then it was either move hay or herd cattle. At the end of the day it was feed, milk and then dinner sometime after dark whenever that was. It was a never ending battle trying to get things done. There were seven of us and I cannot begin to think how you do it alone. Most of the things that we did were low tech with the exception of moving the hay to the barn, by truck. Flash forward forty year and here I was trying to do everything myself until a friend talked me into hiring some help. With limited funds I have a guy that helps me when I can. It is amazing how much we get done; it is not twice the amount because there are two of us but more like two and a half times the work. I know that you have to keep working but you need help. I recently was severely injured working on my place. It has been five weeks and I am just getting back to normal. Had I been in your situation I would have tried to keep up the best I could but I know it would not be at the same level. We all do better with help. I am now working to put together my list of who I would like to band with in the event the SHTF. It will take time and I hope I have it. When the time comes I plan to do what I can to help those in need however there are limits. What those limits are I do not know and will not know until the situation arises.

[Evolver]

From reading all of the posts it looks like we are all like minded on this topic and it's good to see the we're not alone in our thinking. In all practicality where we are located isn't going to be the best place to be if S dose HTF and could get rather ugly so having extra eyes, ear, and hands is going to be very important.
Now here is a twist. Say you recruit a husband and wife or a family with young kids and after time they stop carrying there weight, They knew about the what would happen if they didn't contribute, They have already been warned and now it's time for the banishment and they aren't going to just leave.

[mitunnelrat]

That's were it might be good to establish a communal kitchen and a rewards system from the start. One that requires, at its base, work for pay (food). Its also a very good idea to get a feel for a person's capabilities and interests, so you aren't trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. If a person takes an interest in their work, they're more likely to keep doing it. I also feel that "praising in public" would be a worthwhile preemptive strike. Fill them with the knowledge and pride that their efforts are making a difference. Be as specific as possible.

Just a few thoughts.

[bacpacker]

Some good ideas there Rat. I agree that ground rules HAVE to be established right from the start no matter who, what or why. That way if someone or group isn't doing their part, they will have no expectation of things continuing on. It'll still be hard to end something like what Evolver mentioned, maybe even deadly, but at least the attempt was made. Shouldn't be any reason to feel bad or worry about it then.

Still tons to consider!

[TEOTWAWKI13]

Wow, glad I read all of this thread...good topic, better answers. I think a moral compass post shtf will be a direct corelation to a moral compass pre shtf. If you ain't got one, you ain't got one. I'm no saint, but I try to help when I can. Give some cash to the homeless guy on the exit ramp, take my clothes I don't wear anymore to a church or clothes closet, food to food bank, etc. So I'd like to think I'd still be in a giving and helpful mood when a shtf event happenned. I guess it depends on the severity of said event and the danger it presented to my family.

I think Stig said it best, it may be a wait 'til it happens to see type of answer.

[ravensgrove]

Justa....you said my word....CALLING. And like a doggie my head went "squirrel"?
You said, " Something I'm not sure I can put in to words that any one would understand. It's almost like a "Calling"."

Today we don't often here that word, or the word agape. And both are so very important to surviving through troubled times. The Greeks had three terms for love: eros (desire, chemistry), philia (family, loyalty to community) and agape (transcendent love for the greater good). Agape has often times been called "charitable love".
Like Plato, I am not willing to settle for eros and philia in a post apocolytpic world, any more than I am willing to settle for them now.