How much if your own food do you grow?

[bacpacker]

Solar power is very expensive per watt. 600W is not a huge load, but that would take 8 80W panels to power just the freezer. The reason I mention 80W panels, they are the largest panel you can get by fed-ex or UPS. Shipping freight cost quite a lot more which runs the cost up from there.
Now to the efficentcy of the panels. An 80 watt panel will output 80 watts if kept directed at the sun, with no cloud cover. If the panel is fixed as opposed to being on a tracker, you can probably drop that to 50-60 watts. On a partly cloudy day drop that to 20-40 watts depending on coverage. Around here in the winter we have quite a few cloudy days, say 30-50%. I feel certain the PNW would be even worse than that. Even if you mounted the panels on a tracker you would still need 10-12 80watt panels at a minimum just to run the freezer.
If you have a freezer full of meat and have a big storm come thru that gives pretty solid cloud cover for several days ( we had just that when tropical storm lee came up thru here over labor day weekend. It rained and was cloudy for 6 days with temps in the 70-90's thru that time) your freezer will thaw out without some other means to power it.
This info comes from a good friend of mine who has purchased several different solar panels to charge batteries with so he can run his ham radio set up during emergencies. He did a lot of testing under various conditions this spring and summer. He's a retired engineer and is pretty meticulous in his record keeping. I certainly trust his calculations.

[bobthe]

Solar power is very expensive per watt. 600W is not a huge load, but that would take 8 80W panels to power just the freezer. The reason I mention 80W panels, they are the largest panel you can get by fed-ex or UPS. Shipping freight cost quite a lot more which runs the cost up from there.

panels are getting cheaper and cheaper. see the thread i made in the town hall forum about the idea of a good deals thread.

3.6kw worth of brand new solar panels on ebay right now for 1$ a watt.

go in on a buy with 2 (local) buddies and after the cost of an inverter and freight shipping split three ways, for maybe 1500$ you would have a system that would run the freezer on even cloudy days.

also dont forget the 25 cubic foot freezer i used as a hypothetical only draws 1.5 kwh a day. if you have 1200 watts of panels ALL of the conus gets a year round average of greater than 4 watt hours for a fixed installation (most is between 5 and 6), so your AVERAGE energy budget for a day is 4.8 kwh . so on sunny days you get a lot of surplus power to do other stuff (run power tools, AC, a small microwave, etc)

all of this back of the envelope sort of factoring is assuming you want to avoid the cost and complexity of running batteries. add batteries to the mix and you would almost never have to worry about backup power for a freezer with 1200 watts of panels on the roof

[gunbuilder69]

Solar power is very expensive per watt. 600W is not a huge load, but that would take 8 80W panels to power just the freezer. The reason I mention 80W panels, they are the largest panel you can get by fed-ex or UPS. Shipping freight cost quite a lot more which runs the cost up from there.
Now to the efficentcy of the panels. An 80 watt panel will output 80 watts if kept directed at the sun, with no cloud cover. If the panel is fixed as opposed to being on a tracker, you can probably drop that to 50-60 watts. On a partly cloudy day drop that to 20-40 watts depending on coverage. Around here in the winter we have quite a few cloudy days, say 30-50%. I feel certain the PNW would be even worse than that. Even if you mounted the panels on a tracker you would still need 10-12 80watt panels at a minimum just to run the freezer.
If you have a freezer full of meat and have a big storm come thru that gives pretty solid cloud cover for several days ( we had just that when tropical storm lee came up thru here over labor day weekend. It rained and was cloudy for 6 days with temps in the 70-90's thru that time) your freezer will thaw out without some other means to power it.
This info comes from a good friend of mine who has purchased several different solar panels to charge batteries with so he can run his ham radio set up during emergencies. He did a lot of testing under various conditions this spring and summer. He's a retired engineer and is pretty meticulous in his record keeping. I certainly trust his calculations.

^^^^^That is an accurate statement.^^^^^

All the devils advocacy won't change simple fact. Solar is good in it's structured limitations,but not the answer
Remember this rule of thumb... if you covered the island of manhattan in 80w pv panels,you'd have just enough energy to run one 20 story building.

[ravensgrove]

25 cubic ft freezer won't hold even 1 cow. I have 2 18 cubic ft standing freezers holding ONE cow. And 2 standard chest freezers holding the other one. Again, I am not sure you understand the real volume of meat here.

Second...I live in the PNW and solar still only functions minimally here. Also meat thaws much quicker than you might think. Just this year we had 1 freezer go out, over night..we lost EVERYTHING in the door compartments in 70 degree weather. Thats not even hot for here, or anywhere really.

Third...if we're going to play hypothetical....what if the TEOTWAWKI event is Mt. Rainier blowing up which is very near me...and the last time MT St Helens did we had almost 10 straight days of minimal light. Or what about any other number of thigns which might take out solar? EMP...et all.

So...if we are talking TEOTWAWKI I'd be looking for ways to survive minus power all together.

[ravensgrove]

I'll add this very thing...is why I choose to raise small livestock. In the event of TEOTWAWKI or even a supply chain breakdown:
A) You're looking at feeding large stock through the winter...with no grains...which unless you have 100s of acres...good luck with that. I have 7 acres, I can't support large livestock here.
B) As I pointed out, I don't think you understand the real volume we are talking about in meat in one large steer here...800 lbs of beef....EACH. You try shoving that in a 25 cubic ft freezer...it ain't happening my man. Hell I can barely fit 1 300 lb hog in a standing 18 cubic ft freezer.

In the end, this is why I chose small livestock breeds. Carcass usability and land requirements for maintenance minus grain....in the event no grain is around.

[bobthe]

25 cubic ft freezer won't hold even 1 cow. I have 2 18 cubic ft standing freezers holding ONE cow. And 2 standard chest freezers holding the other one. Again, I am not sure you understand the real volume of meat here.

25 cubic feet should hold 1000 lbs of beef assuming a 66% backing density (ie 1/3rd of the cooler is open space).
I assume you arent packing your freezer for maximum packing density, but rather ease of access.

In any event, the point is moot, because you surely must agree that a 25 cubit foot freezer would hold a heck of a lot of meat that otherwise would ahve to be consumed / preserved in a ridiculously short period of time.

Second...I live in the PNW and solar still only functions minimally here.

you happen to be in the worst place in CONUS for solar. 90% of the nation would get at least twice the power out of the same panel you would. I admit I should have been more clear, but at the time I was speaking more generally, and only replied to your post because you were the second person to rule out refrigeration. backpacker would get twice as much KWHs per day as you and he was saying no refrigeration as well.

Also meat thaws much quicker than you might think. .

No it doesnt. animal is 70% water dont forget. how long will it take a 500 lbs block of ice to melt in a freezer? no way in heck it's happening over night. The instance you mentioned must have involved a very poorly designed freezer.

Third...if we're going to play hypothetical....what if the TEOTWAWKI event is Mt. Rainier blowing up which is very near me...and the last time MT St Helens did we had almost 10 straight days of minimal light. Or what about any other number of thigns which might take out solar? EMP...et all.

So...if we are talking TEOTWAWKI I'd be looking for ways to survive minus power all together.

10 days of minimal light - thats why I said you would need a backup source of power. a generator and some fuel.

But EMPs and such? you might as well argue that TEOTWAWKI might be a 100% lethal virus with a 100% infection rate, so why bother to prep at all. The ability to have power and the ability to refrigerate large game would come in very handy in a lot situations post SHTF. and many of those situations dont involve sunlight obscuring dust or EMP

Maybe it's just a regional thing, but down here in hurricane land, after you have a few cases of bottled water, a small stash of food, the very next thing on the list is a generator and fuel. Heck I keep 125 gallons on hand and think I'm under supplied.

as far as supporting the large stock on your land. that was something I was going to follow up on, regarding the lines of my previous question asking how sustainable livestock was fromt he standpoint of genetic diversity.

[ravensgrove]

I don't care what your math says....I have 2 cows shoved in 4 freezers right now...they are so full you can barely get anything out. LOL. Seriously. Who said I didn't have a generator? You're talking about keeping a freezer going for months on end to use up all that meat...in a true TEOTWAWKI scenario....where am I getting gas to run this generator? Your 125 gallons ain't gonna keep that freezer ( plus 3 more) going for the 5 months it would take to use that meat. As for arguing the greatness of the dead freezer...had nothing to do with the freezer itself, breaker went out in the shop. And let's be clear, I am not ruling out refrigeration, I said refrigeration is not fail safe...and with the effort and money it costs to raise large animals...I wouldn't put my bets on large carcasses staying refrigerated long enough to use them up.

I already talked about genetic diversity. Line breeding is perfectly doable to the seventh degree providing you don't breed full siblings to full siblings. As none of my seedstock are genetically related to one another, the gene pool is actually quite large. But as I said previously in a true TEOTWAWKI scenario....even if you had 500 head of any animal....eventually you'd need new genetics. Let's take the goats as an example here. My does range in age from 1 to 3 years old. They will produce up to about 10 years old. There are six seperate bloodlines in the does. This means that concievably I could breed them until 10 years, and at their 8th year keep a doe from a litter to replace that doe. I think they do best if not bred before 18 months old, and have a 5 month gestation. In this way I'd have does kidding as others retired. These new does would be the second generation of line breeding. Same holds true for a buck. That means by round about 70 years in...I could possibly have some genetic problems. That 70 years is much more than I could ever store in #10 cans of food. Is my point. Its not that I don't store food, water et all. I do. I just also have livestock.

Line breeding is how all purebred animals have been developed. Its very common place in all livestock breeding and I have done it my entire life in everything from show dogs to meat rabbits.

Would you like me to photobucket some breeding charts from my rabbits so I can show you how it works? Its easier to understand in a picture, than in trying to type it out.

You seem argumentative. I have nothing against solar, I just don't think in my particular location solar makes much sense except for as a redundancy. Its certainly not going to be my primary source of reliability for anything. If I lived in Arizona, that'd be different. But if I lived in a desert climate I'd choose different livestock as well.

And that is probably the key factor here....location is everything. What will work for me in my scenario HERE....won't necessarily work for you THERE....and vice versa. I don't talk in general terms. I say..."this is what I am doing here". Learn from it, don't...I don't give a crap either way, I'm just sharing information. The original title was How Much of Your Own Food Do You Produce. I answered that....and for whatever reason you don't like my answer. Ok then, don't raise livestock then. But if you don't raise livestock....you better really be packing away the #10 cans and MREs.

[bobthe]

You seem argumentative.

*snip* ....and for whatever reason you don't like my answer.

i dont mean to be. i agree solar isnt the best way to go for you specifically. my point was only to get others to consider it as just about the entire rest of the nation would see the option as much more viable than you would. i wasnt arguing WITH you. your post was just the first 'forget refrigeration' post i clicked reply to. obviously storing your food goes hand in hand with what you can produce, so i figured the subject on topic for the thread.

[The Stig]

I don't care what your math says....I have 2 cows shoved in 4 freezers right now...they are so full you can barely get anything out.

Real world versus theoretical calculations of "what should be"?

Love it.

Thank you for sharing your real world information.

While an interesting topic, and this is not directed towards you in any way, I'm struggling to grasp what the hell any of this discussion about solar power has to do with how much of your own food you grow.

[bobthe]

While an interesting topic, and this is not directed towards you in any way, I'm struggling to grasp what the hell any of this discussion about solar power has to do with how much of your own food you grow.

unless someone has the ability to eat a whole cow in one sitting, then not eat again for a year, your ability to STORE food both now and post SHTF has a rather lot to do with how much of your own food you can raise / grow I would think...